William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun • Hacker News Board

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#61

Post by riku_iki » Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 2:48 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #60

riku_iki wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> beyond what would be the regular vassal/lord relationship common to most feudal cultures "vassal/lord relationships" could be very different in very different cultures. If it was common for Sengoku samurais to commit sepuku on order of lord, then this is concept/code of bushido which was not present in say majority of Western feudal cultures.

It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else ...". There are some examples where it happened, but not enough to consider it standard practice or "code". Putting enemies to the sword, one way or the other, was also common in Europe. The difference is that Christianity frowned upon suicide (either voluntary or forced). Samurai defeated in battle ran away t…

> It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else...".

I am wondering how did you arrive to this conclusion? I guess one would need to do some comprehensive review of all available materials from that time?..

> Even the katana as the "soul of the samurai" is a later day fiction; samurai during the Sengoku prized katanas (or their predecesors, actually) but they didn't particularly use them except as sidearms; it was the spear and the bow

I am not sure where katana as the soul idea came from, but I speculate that while spear, bow and arquebuse were battlefield weapons, samurais used it only in rare events of going to campaigns, while they carried katana rest of the time, so I guess it could be appropriate to call it soul.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#62

Post by the_af » Wed, Mar 27, 2024, 1:24 PM UTC

riku_iki wrote: post #61

the_af wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else ...". There are some examples where it happened, but not enough to consider it standard practice or "code". Putting enemies to the sword, one way or the other, was also common in Europe. The difference is that Christianity frowned upon suicide (either voluntary or forced). Samurai defeated in battle ran away t…

> It wasn't very common for samurai to commit seppuku voluntarily. More frequently it was "you do this or else...". I am wondering how did you arrive to this conclusion? I guess one would need to do some comprehensive review of all available materials from that time?.. > Even the katana as the "soul of the samurai" is a later day fiction; samurai during the Sengoku prized katanas (or their predecesors, actually) but…

> I am wondering how did you arrive to this conclusion?

Read what mainstream historians wrote, as opposed to more pop culture oriented divulgators like Turnbull (who in later works retracted his earlier opinions).

Historical records don't show many people voluntarily committing seppuku, but there's lots of instances of people forced to commit suicide (or whole families executed).

There are also lots of instances of samurai, high ranking and low ranking, running from the battlefield to fight another day. The notion that a samurai must commit seppuku on defeat is untenable.

Seriously, if you google the literature a bit you'll see the same opinions.

> I am not sure where katana as the soul idea came from

The writings of the Edo period, after the Tokugawa shogunate made the daisho (the pair of short and long swords) a symbol of the samurai. Before this, during the warring period, anyone could use a sword and there was nothing special to it.

> samurais used it only in rare events of going to campaigns, while they carried katana rest of the time, so I guess it could be appropriate to call it soul.

Nope. The weapons the samurai valued and trained with during peacetime were the bow primarily -- the bow was THE samurai weapon -- and the naginata (earlier) and spear.

The katana proper didn't even exist, it was the tachi or uchigatana, its antecessors. And while quality works were prized (and some had religious significance, especially pre-katana swords!) they were merely sidearms.

The "soul of the samurai" is a later day romanticization.

Re: William Adams: English Advisor to the Shogun

#63

Post by midnight2 » Tue, Apr 09, 2024, 12:23 AM UTC

the_af wrote: post #56

hoseja wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the racism is really played up quite a lot in that show. I'd be fine with the basic premise (it's completely OK to depict the Japanese as wary of whites and finding some aspects of their foreign culture off-putting, and the main character being especially brought up to hate them) but damn, they really go out of their way to just repeatedly state, literally: "White people are monstrous and disgusting, they will…

It's just a narrative trope to make the main character, Mizu, an "onryo" and an outcast. It's purposefully jarring that she considers herself "monstruous" but we, the spectators, see she is quite nice, actually. Calling this "anti-white" (as the now flagged comment this) reveals more of the prejudice of the people claiming so. > White people are monstrous and disgusting [...] it is completely OK to despise them and a…

I just don't care. I get enough anti-Whiteness from literally all other media, why would I choose to watch more for pro-White "subtext"? Not interested in how they choose to peddle their latest propaganda.

I am very prejudiced against media that involves killing people for being White. I am very prejudiced against Netflix. I am very prejudiced against Hollywood. They have earned my prejudice.