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Why is it so hard to build an airport?

construction-physics.com

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Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#61
post #13
post #7

Very interesting to see how the noise of jet engines declined significantly. While reading the article I kept thinking, it feels like investing in noise reduction would really pay off, and then a few paragraphs later, there it was. I'm also intrigued by small airports, like the one in Rio, Santos Dumont. The shortest runways in the world. If you could reduce noise and control pollution, it is very nice to have an air…

Some small airports made sense at the time they were built, but no more (either because planes are bigger now or because construction around the airport was not adequately restricted in ensuing decades. Congonhas in Sao Paulo is an example of this, where it can only handle smaller domestic flights now because of the way the city has grown around it. Here's a satellite photo: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a27d24_…

Yet, airlines fight deary for slots at Congonhas, because lots of people want really badly to land there.

The same can be said for Santos Dumont, that requires specially adapted planes, with reduced capacity to fly there. Or Pampulha that is more extreme, and airlines keep entire models of planes on their fleet just so they can fly there.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#62
post #2

Long & interesting...but a pretty good tl;dr; is: "NIMBY's are why we can't build any major infrastructure any more".

For every other non-native speaker like me, lmgtfu: NIMBY (/ˈnɪmbi/, or nimby), an acronym for the phrase "not in my back yard", is a characterization of opposition by residents to proposed infrastructure developments in their local area, as well as support for strict land use regulations.

Your definition is accurate, but I think it is incomplete. The stereotypical NIMBY doesn't want something in their backyard, but they still want the advantages of it existing. They want it to be place in someone else's backyard.

People opposing airport construction still want to fly. They just want someone else to have the noise.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#63

There's been discussions where the "next" airport should go in the Seattle region, and the consensus is that nobody wants it. The State Legislature created a commission to try and identify some potential sites, but the public backlash was so great that they ended up submitting it's final report with no actual recommendation. One of the interesting ideas (that was proposed even back when SEA was adding it's third runw…

> One of the interesting ideas [...] is to run high-speed rail to Moses Lake Airport in Central Washington and just expand there.

While reading this article, I thought about something like that too. Build an airport quite a while away from the big city, and provide a high-speed, maybe even maglev train there. Make it free for customers.

Also, make it very inconvenient for passengers and staff to approach the airport by other means, only allow cargo delivery there through the road network. This disincentives people from e.g. building hotels close to the airport, which would then attract further settlement, which would ultimately lead to noise complaints again.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#64
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, apart from the largest US cities your average european city is larger. The US doesn't even have 10 cities which are above 1 million people.

That’s only if you count within strict city limits. Metro areas, not to mention MSAs consists of larger pops.

Right. That factoid is only true because cities in the US tend to avoid mergers.

The US had 62 statistical areas with a pop. over a million in 2020 (plus San Juan, PR).

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#65
post #2

Long & interesting...but a pretty good tl;dr; is: "NIMBY's are why we can't build any major infrastructure any more".

Sure, this is classic NIMBYism. I understand: we live in a very quiet area, and would certainly oppose something that would dramatically change that. However, what I do not understand are the people who move next to an existing airport, and then complain about the noise. We used to live near a major, international airport. Planes flew overhead. That noise was implicitly factored into the price we paid, and we certain…

When I lived in San Diego, I worked near the military airport now known as MCAS Miramar. My coworkers and I were honestly stunned by the people who sued after moving in nearby claiming that they had no idea the place they filmed Top Gun would be that noisy.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#66

When building https://randomairport.onrender.com/ I noticed that US and Euro airports always look very different Somehow US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas, even in the direction of the runways, while Euro airports don’t seem to have this problem. And secondly Us airports always seem to take huge plots of land compared to Euro airports. My assumption is that Us cities are…

> US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas

The US in general is very densely built up. The distinct lack of green space in US cities is very noticeable to the non-US observer.

So I think its more of a case that US airports are surrounded by "less" densely populated areas.

> And secondly Us airports always seem to take huge plots of land compared to Euro airports.

With the exception of the limited number of buildings of historical interest, In general the US doesn't do history in its buildings. They'll happily tear stuff down and build a shiny new thing in its place.

As I understand it the whole concept of green belt / urban conservation is also fairly minimal in the US mentality, so large land grabs for building and expansion of airports are easier in the US.

Meanwhile, in Europe, most airports have history and grew organically. And the whole green belt / urban conservation thing is much stronger in Europe. For example, London Heathrow started off life as a single grass runway with a few simple buildings and grew organically over time. Its growth ultimately limited by the city that grew around it, and so you end up with for example the present controversial discussion over the possibility of a third runway. I would hazard a guess that if Heathrow were in the US, the third runway would have been built and operational by now !

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#67

When building https://randomairport.onrender.com/ I noticed that US and Euro airports always look very different Somehow US airports always seem to be surrounded by densely populated residential areas, even in the direction of the runways, while Euro airports don’t seem to have this problem. And secondly Us airports always seem to take huge plots of land compared to Euro airports. My assumption is that Us cities are…

Actually, apart from the largest US cities your average european city is larger. The US doesn't even have 10 cities which are above 1 million people.

You are missing the forest for the trees. US cities are smaller in a pedantic sense. That is why planners and intelligent people use Metro area statistics for population, traffic, infrastructure planning etc.

Dallas population about 1 million. Dallas metro - 7.7 million. This is an important distinction missed out.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, apart from the largest US cities your average european city is larger. The US doesn't even have 10 cities which are above 1 million people.

"The US doesn't even have 10 cities which are above 1 million people. reply" I did not believe this and googled it. It is true. 1 Million would be tiny in China. Province.

Counting "city population" is nearly a pointless exercise. What matters is the metro area, otherwise you get some pretty useless results. Austin, TX is tenth by city size in the US, with just under a million people, while San Francisco is 17th, with about 800k. But Austin is a much bigger percentage of the total Austin metro area, while the Bay area is ~8-10 million people total. As such, SF feels like a much bigger city in nearly every capacity.

Re: Why is it so hard to build an airport?

#70
> And an airport can’t be too far from a city and remain useful, since travelers need to access the city, workers need to be within commuting distance, and so on. In Canada, Mirabel airport was built 35 miles from Montreal, surrounded by a 79,000 acre buffer zone to prevent any issues of incompatible land use. Mirabel was expected to replace Dorval (today Montreal-Trudeau) as Canada’s main eastern airport, but, in part because of its long distance from the city, this never happened, and Mirabel stopped serving passenger traffic in 2004.

Another relatively new airport built far from the city it serves is Munich airport, located around 33 km (20 miles) from the city center, opened in 1992. The two major candidates for "relatively sparsely populated area" when the airport was planned (back in the 1960s) were a swampy area north of Munich (Erdinger Moos) and a forest to the south (Hofoldinger Forst). They picked the swamp, which leads to frequent fog problems. And they solved the problem of the old airport competing against the new one by simply closing the old airport (the company operating the new one is the same as for the old one, so no protests there). Some equipment was even moved from the old airport to the new one in an overnight relocation. But, as the 30 years from planning to opening show, even this remote location was not without conflicts. And, more than 30 years after the opening, there is still no fast train to the airport. The Munich-Nuremberg high speed railway line could have been routed by the airport, but (according to rumors) this wasn't done to protect the Nuremberg airport. Then there were plans for a maglev train (Transrapid) which were cancelled in the early 2000s. Currently the plan is for an Express S-Bahn line, but since the S-Bahn tunnel in the city center can't accommodate any more trains, this will only be possible when the second S-Bahn tunnel is completed (the date for that keeps getting pushed back, currently it's 2035).

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