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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#61

Post by bmj »

dkrich wrote: post #29

You are missing the point of his post which I believe is valid- that programming in and of itself is nothing but a skill to carry out a task. He isn't dissuading beginners from learning to code or suggesting that people shouldn't. Just that you shouldn't learn to code just for the sake of knowing how to code. I get it. There are worse hobbies you can have and it can solve problems and spread information, etc., etc. T…

I just re-read Mr. Atwood's post, and I'm not sure that's what I get out of it. He talks about people learning to code to do it for a living, not just doing it as a hobby/learning experience. Though he starts by saying code is just one skill among many, his arguments centers around people doing as a career ("we don't need more bad programmers" and "programmers should be writing less code").

I suspect that really, Jeff and Zed might actually agree that people should be free to tinker, and resources should be available for them to learn to tinker (see Jeff's plumbing analogy--would the Jeff Atwood of plumbing tell me not to learn how to fix my leaky faucet because there are already enough bad plumbers in the world?).

Certainly, some people learn to code for the wrong reasons, and they see every problem as a program to be written. But hey, if they want to do that in their basement (or even as part of their job), let them--we've all had to learn one way or another that the world doesn't work that way.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#62

Post by zedshaw »

j45 wrote: post #53

"Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers" Zing. A great litmus test that's simple and has results too. Too many programming communities, including the most popular web frameworks that are the be all and end all to everything have elements of this. It's not something to be proud of to feel better about yourself by putting others down, telling others what they do, or how they do it, or who the…

It's not just programming. I run into this with guitarists too. I mostly play for my own enjoyment, but I constantly run into guitarists who get off on treating beginners like crap. Even in music schools they do this, and for some weird reason they think that this is how you make students awesome.

Ultimately, these kinds of behaviors in teachers don't make better students, they just kill off the more fragile ones who might have been awesome with some help.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#63

Post by fictorial »

gfodor wrote: post #56

Nail on head. This would be the part of my comment where I try to add something, but I'd be wasting my breath; Zed already said everything that needs to be said here.

Would it not suffice to click the little up arrow and carry on then? :-)

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#64

Post by zedshaw »

jwingy wrote: post #50

The only thing all these counterpoint blog posts are proving is that while programming may or may not be important for everyone to learn in the future, being able to hold and understand cogent arguments most certainly is. I've read at least two blog posts today making counter arguments to points the op wasn't even making (op being Jeff). I have a feeling a big part of it is the blogger proclivity to make link bait he…

Maybe if I learned to code when I was younger I'd be better at logic arguments.

But, sadly, I'm a human and not a computer so I tend to write like a human.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#65

Post by zedshaw »

sasha-dv wrote: post #35
zedshaw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because that's how life goes. I'm not going to attack the logic of an article that is illogical, I'm going to talk about the hypocrisy of the person writing it. The human stuff matters much more than the fantasy world of "logic".

Hypocrisy? Aren't you selling some ebooks and Jeff's post is kinda bad for your business?

You confuse self-interest with hypocrisy. I am definitely self-interested and openly admit it, but I try not to be a hypocrite.

For example, I think people should spend their lives learning new things. After I write a few more comments on HN, I'm going to grab my guitar and go learn a new scale. :-)

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#66

Post by jeffpersonified »

As a guy currently in the midst of learning how to code, and doing so with Codecademy (it's been a fantastic tool, and made the process far less painful), I really appreciate this viewpoint. More than that, it's encouraging.

I don't intend to get a job as a developer. I don't convince myself that I'll ever get hired because of my capacity with RoR. I do, however, hope that I can continue to become a better communicator with the developing community, understand the basic parameters around different languages, and hopefully build some things myself... and have fun doing so.

Indeed, as PG has said in the past, learning to code may be more valuable in the coming years than having an MBA (in certain fields). Code isn't going away. It's a language that my kids will grow up bilingual in, and I hope to help guide them into it as the first generation immigrant that I am.

Hell, my skills are elsewhere, and I'm more than fine with that.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#67

Post by joedev »

"These resentful programmers also hate that the new kids seem to be skipping all of their favorite indoctrinations"

Reminds me of the old ditty:

"Flowers are red young man Green leaves are green There's no need to see flowers any other way Than they way they always have been seen"

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#68

Post by demian »

cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

I don't believe this post gets the real reason why Jeff said what he said.

In my opinion, Jeff projected some of his issues with the current state of the software development profession (mainly the "hack fist, ask questions later" aproach). The idea that bothered him wasn't born from elitism, identity, or the fact that people were learning to code, but the idea that, to him, this makes this issue worse.

It's true that he is making an implicit leap from "everyone should learn to code" to "everyone should be a programmer". I personally don't agree, but maybie he has a good argument. Maybie he should try to explain that connection a little further.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#69

Post by zedshaw »

decklin wrote: post #38

I need some sort of AI filter for HN that will not only hide blog posts from a particular domain, but hide other people's blog posts "responding" to those blog posts and then submitted as separate articles.

You should, then give it to me so I can sort out the comments that don't add to the discussion, but keep the replies telling people they aren't adding to the discussion.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#70

Post by B-Con »

He really missed Jeff's point. This was a terrible piece.

> Currently, Jeff Attwood has a piece where he tells you to not learn to code. I wonder if he's going to tell his kids they shouldn't learn to code when they want to become just like Daddy? Probably not. He'll gleefully run over and show them how to code and tell them it's so much fun and that they should all do it and it's the best thing ever! But, of course, your kids shouldn't learn to code, and you shouldn't, and your friends shouldn't, just Jeff and his kids should.

No, that's not what Jeff said.

Jeff was arguing against learning programming casually if you have no logical extension for your knowledge. He was coming at it from more of a "don't spend time learning specialized skill sets you won't need" stand-point. This piece makes it out as if Jeff were openly attacking anybody who wanted to program. If you read Jeff's post, the title is obviously an exaggeration, as are most of his blog post titles.

I don't agree with Jeff's point, but this piece made it out to be a wild exaggeration that it wasn't.

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