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Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

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Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#61

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

> Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago?

The circle of enshittification, plain and simple.

Windows itself is the worst culprit, given that it took until (IIRC!) Windows 10 to arrive at a sensible gesture API and before that it was a hit-and-miss involving custom drivers for every model and barely any unification for gestures.

That in turn led to software for Windows never even utilizing the benefit of multitouch, and so in turn hardware manufacturers weren't pushed either because why invest effort when it's useless anyway?

On top of that, hardware build quality sucks on everything Windows. It's almost exclusively really small (i.e. half a cigarette pack) touchpads, recessed 2mm or more into the hardware, and full plastic that stains after less than half a year of moderate usage. In contrast, MacBooks ship with touchpads literally larger than the hands of someone who has worked in construction, and they're made out of glass that is nearly flush with the casing, so no dirt or anything even has a chance of accumulating.

(I don't even care about Linux at that point, where the hot mess of display drivers, window managers, UI frameworks and whatnot makes the complexity of "getting it right" even worse)

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using the term 'down arrow' in the context of scrolling already reveals you aren't the target audience for such a feature.

Ok, I'm not in the target audience. Fine. I would still like to know what it is.

Well, the first thing you need to know is that, as the title of the submission clearly states, this is about touchpads. Not keyboards. So, y'know, pointing out that the down arrow isn't super relevant isn't exactly coming out of nowhere.

But assuming that their version of smooth scrolling does, in fact, work the same as Apple's, it's not even a matter of "it smoothly animates scrolling down by one line;" it's that you can scroll by individual pixels, rather than by lines, using the touchpad. I suspect that a certain amount of work also has to go into ensuring that the scroll animation is both smooth and well-synced with the user's finger motion on the touchpad, but I've never done work that low-level, so I'll have to defer to anyone with better expertise there.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#64
post #21
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, the multitouch magic mouse is pretty intuitive when you get used to it. Depending on what you do, it could be an excellent daily driver, but it does tend to have some limitations that can make it a non-starter...

I can’t right click on them. I guess you have to raise up your fingers from the left side? I just found that to be a dealbreaker. I’ve had to use them for work and I turn them into one-button mice with scrolling. The scrolling is excellent, I like low-profile mice, and I don’t mind the charger port location. But I need to right click!

Magic mouse only has only one button, like all Apple mice. It relies on touch detection to fake multiple button support.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#65
post #59

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

It is an interesting thing to think about, I have friends that use Windows that are shocked that I willingly chose to get an external trackpad when I use my Mac as desktop. Even more interesting is when I see my partner try to do something on my Mac using a trackpad, he seems... apprehensive? Like he is so afraid of doing the wrong thing and for me this trackpad has never done something I didn't want it to do. Like w…

>I believe that the 3D Touch tech that was once in the iPhone is the same tech that is in the track pad and the Apple Watch

3D touch was only in the iphones for a few years, it was too expensive so they cut it in favor of the haptic touch they have now. The macbook trackpad is nice but honestly I prefer the old 2012 one they had with the actual physical button you could tweak the pressure of with a screwdriver. It seems a lot more ergonomic to have some actual give in the device instead of just jamming your finger onto an unmoving slab of glass. You don't even realize how hard it is you are pressing onto these things until you try testing your muscle memory with the computer off; its sort of alarming.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#66
post #15

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

That “ROI” comment stood out. Companies should focus on making quality products without tying everything to ROI. The state of some software on Linux is just embarrassing. No attention to detail. Oh and I’ve been using Linux since I installed Slackware via floppy disks. I have an external Apple touchpad and I got the Boot Camp drivers for it working on my gaming PC. I keep it to the left of my keyboard with my mouse o…

> Companies should focus on making quality products without tying everything to ROI.

Unfortunately the companies prone to do that are the ones that go out of business. When you get the huge resources like the tech giants you have that luxury, but as a startup you don't.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#67
post #20

Why does this seem like such a hard problem to solve for everyone that isn’t Apple, when Apple seemingly solved the Trackpad over a decade ago? Is this it? An unknown ROI? >the highly uncertain ROI for trying to align touchpad acceleration has prevented us from proposing a system change to the default Linux settings. I can only speak for myself, but I gave up using trackpads on anything that isn’t a MacBook many year…

I've been reading this kind of opinion for years, but I have always found the touchpad to be annoyingly slow under macOS. On the other hand, MacBooks are basically the only laptops with a large enough touchpad to be comfortable, I don't know if there's some other secret sauce Apple algorithm in the firmware that contributes to the experience, but to me the perfect combination is with a MacBook running Linux, which is…

I think I'll have to watch one of these people who love the Mac touchpad work. We are clearly not working the same way. Even with max speed and acceleration my MacBook air m2 touchpad feel anemic, and cumbersome for selecting text.

Fwiw I also have an apple mouse, and the touch based scroll feels unpredictable, and the mouse a bit slow too.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#68
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t right click on them. I guess you have to raise up your fingers from the left side? I just found that to be a dealbreaker. I’ve had to use them for work and I turn them into one-button mice with scrolling. The scrolling is excellent, I like low-profile mice, and I don’t mind the charger port location. But I need to right click!

Magic mouse only has only one button, like all Apple mice. It relies on touch detection to fake multiple button support.

This basically makes their mice unusable for certain things like gaming. I had to use their mouse for a while and I opted to bind right click to a keyboard button because what do you know, most games bind aim and shoot to right and left click.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#69
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t right click on them. I guess you have to raise up your fingers from the left side? I just found that to be a dealbreaker. I’ve had to use them for work and I turn them into one-button mice with scrolling. The scrolling is excellent, I like low-profile mice, and I don’t mind the charger port location. But I need to right click!

I wonder if that's the old magic mouse. I don't think I do that with the newer one but I remember something like that with the original.

No, that's both versions of the Magic Mouse. I have the most current version (in my hand right now), and if you want to right-click, you definitely need to lift your finger from the left side.

Re: Linux Touchpad Like MacBook Update: 2023 Progress on Smooth Scrolling

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an Apple Magic Trackpad, which I use with my laptop and external monitor. There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to. It's great to be able to take your laptop with you, but it's not a device suited for hours of use. It's also illegal to work on a laptop, without external peripherals and monitor, so you need a pointing device anyway.

> There is no way I'm going to suffer the ergonomic hell that is a laptop for a second longer than I absolutely have to I agree with this, but intentionally choosing a trackpad to put on your desk is just accepting a portion of this hell, in my opinion. The trackpad is an RSI torture device to me, because of the way you have to hold the muscles in the back of your hand tense so all but one finger is a little higher t…

On the flip side, one of my colleagues was overjoyed when Apple released the Magic Trackpad, because it's worlds better for her to use with her arthritis than any kind of mouse she's tried.
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