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The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

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Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#61

Post by lm28469 »

xyzelement wrote: post #5
zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a fe…

//It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We don’t. A hundred years the average man was putting in 7 to 7 shifts on the factory or the farm. Physically exhausting, dangerous and painful labor that required your physical presence and likely left you too exhausted for anything else. Today you and I are click clacking our keyboards in a safe and air conditioned environmen…

> We don’t. A hundred years the average man was putting in 7 to 7 shifts on the factory or the farm. Physically exhausting, dangerous and painful labor that required your physical presence and likely left you too exhausted for anything else.

This as been debunked countless of time, besides the dark ages of the industrial revolution people actually worked less than our 40-50 hours per weeks, every week of the year, from 20 to 65+

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#62

Post by lm28469 »

tw04 wrote: post #15
xyzelement wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

//It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We don’t. A hundred years the average man was putting in 7 to 7 shifts on the factory or the farm. Physically exhausting, dangerous and painful labor that required your physical presence and likely left you too exhausted for anything else. Today you and I are click clacking our keyboards in a safe and air conditioned environmen…

Much like the anti-vax movement, the average American seems in complete denial of how things really were a hundred years ago. Prior to unions, work looked completely different - EVERYONE has benefitted from the change unions brought about. It's easy to tell yourself that sort of thing would never happen in a country like this when you weren't a direct witness to people (including children) literally being worked to d…

During the industrial revolution yes, but if you go back further in time we still have it relatively bad

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#64

Post by richrichie »

mschuster91 wrote: post #51
richrichie wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I would also add the climate-change cult to the list. They forget how bad things were just 100 years ago.

We are in the mess we are in to a large degree because of the historical emissions.

There is much less pollution now, life expectancy has never been higher, deaths from natural disasters have never been lower, etc, etc.

Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#65

Post by StefanBatory »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #20
zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a fe…

Regardless of the facts, actually it does fall out from certain first principles: https://www.slatestarcodexabridged.com/Meditations-On-Moloch If someone else worked harder, they'd out-compete you, maybe conquer you. So we set a threshold and say, you can work 40-80-ish hours without going totally insane and dying. But there's no point working less than that, because someone else is ready to push the envelope. Even i…

It's the same in Europe. We work on average way less than you do in US.

... and well, it's USA that is the superpower, not Europe.

Even looking at software salaries - in Germany/France 50k is a high salary for software engineer. In USA you wouldn't even look at it after being fresh out the uni.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#66

Post by badcppdev »

lm28469 wrote: post #62
tw04 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much like the anti-vax movement, the average American seems in complete denial of how things really were a hundred years ago. Prior to unions, work looked completely different - EVERYONE has benefitted from the change unions brought about. It's easy to tell yourself that sort of thing would never happen in a country like this when you weren't a direct witness to people (including children) literally being worked to d…

During the industrial revolution yes, but if you go back further in time we still have it relatively bad

Those of us who survive childbirth and childhood probably do work longer hours than some of our ancestors.

I refuse to agree that it is "relatively bad" because I am happy that I live in a medically advanced civilisation with low childhood mortality and high life expectancies.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#67

Post by mschuster91 »

richrichie wrote: post #64
mschuster91 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are in the mess we are in to a large degree because of the historical emissions.

There is much less pollution now, life expectancy has never been higher, deaths from natural disasters have never been lower, etc, etc. Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago.

> Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago.

The problem is the future outlook, not the status quo. Climate change effects on the Northern Hemisphere (i.e. continental USA, most of Europe) haven't really become visible yet, at least not for up until the last 5-ish years that have all blown past records for extreme adversary weather events.

In addition to that comes the migration issue that will be caused by climate change. Our societies are already struggling keeping up with people fleeing from war and poverty in the South - give Africa 10-20 more years of climate change and droughts, and then the situation will be dire. Alone up to 2050 (so, in the next 26 years), predictions go for 86 million people having to flee from Africa [1] - and half of Europe fell to the far right with barely 5 million refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and other wars. We're nowhere near prepared to deal with the future.

[1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1263402/umfra...

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#68

Post by lynx23 »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

It’s strange that we even work more or even at the same amount of time as 100 years ago. We have systems that increase worker productivity and even software by itself for the most part should be decreasing the amount of work to be done since it’s supposedly a large force multiplier for productivity. Economists predicted we would be working less (but they are bad at predicting most things) so while there might be a fe…

Maybe those cconomists were already working less, which explains why their predictions were crap.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#69

Post by lm28469 »

badcppdev wrote: post #66
lm28469 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the industrial revolution yes, but if you go back further in time we still have it relatively bad

Those of us who survive childbirth and childhood probably do work longer hours than some of our ancestors. I refuse to agree that it is "relatively bad" because I am happy that I live in a medically advanced civilisation with low childhood mortality and high life expectancies.

I guess if you only look at the upsides it's not such a bad place.

Re: The virtuous mean between time drunkenness and work martyrdom

#70

Post by CalRobert »

coldtea wrote: post #59
CalRobert wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you are not trying to produce a fixed amount of goods. You are trying to compete with your peers for a limited supply of goods. Some of these things are artificially constrained (housing), and some of these things are hard or impossible to scale and thereby subject to Baumol's cost disease (surgeons, teachers/tutors, etc.) So long as 2 people are chasing 1 house, or worse, one oncology appointment for their child…

> But you are not trying to produce a fixed amount of goods At some point we should, for the most part of what we consume, instead of ever expanding into BS things we don't need (like "smart fridges") and burning down things we do need (time, which we aren't getting back, and is spend working and paying for such bullshit).

Absolutely! All I really want is a warm, insulated home where my kids can run and bike around with other kids, and decent access to education and health care. A 70sqm flat in a car-free city would do the trick. We definitely need less crap in our lives, and more time with the people we love.
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