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The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

emacsconf.org

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Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#61

Post by Jtsummers »

digging wrote: post #40
BeetleB wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fairly clear that Vim and Emacs _both_ lost the editor wars, and VSCode has come out on top. Many (most?) Emacs enthusiasts don't use it primarily for SW development. VSCode simply isn't an alternative for their needs. Make two lists: - List of things you can do in VSCode that you can't in Emacs - List of things you can do in Emacs that you can't in VSCode The latter list will be 10-100x longer.

Since I only use VSCode (or Codium...), what sorts of things would be in the latter list?

I don't think there's anything that's technically not-doable in VS Code that emacs can do. For me, it's more about ease of use that differentiates the two. Specifically around extensions.

https://code.visualstudio.com/api/get-started/your-first-ext...

That's the VS Code description on how to start writing extensions to VS Code. The first steps involve installing node.js so you can install another tool so you can generate scaffolding.

In emacs it would be:

Step 1: Open emacs

Step 2: Open a scratch buffer (q&d extensions, put in a .el file if you want to preserve it)

Step 3: Write some lisp code

Step 4: Evaluate the lisp code

Step 5: There is no step 5, use your extension

Caveats:

You have to learn programming to extend either of them so that's a common burden.

You have to learn lisp to extend emacs, but that's an easy thing to do.

You have to read the documentation to really get going with extension development, another common burden.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#62

Post by cesarb »

GrumpySloth wrote: post #17
lupusreal wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a Safari/Apple issue, not a lack-of-javascript issue.

Yup. I’ve downloaded the Webm file and iOS doesn’t know what to do with it, which is odd, since Apple allegedly added support for Webm in iOS 15. I’m on iOS 17.

> which is odd, since Apple allegedly added support for Webm in iOS 15. I’m on iOS 17.

Which video codec? Originally webm could contain only VP8, but nowadays it can also contain VP9 and AV1. It's possible that Apple only implemented VP8 (https://caniuse.com/webm implies that it has implemented VP8 and VP9 but has VP9 disabled by default); if this video uses a newer codec, it won't work.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#63

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

shadowgovt wrote: post #41

I think I fell in love with emacs when I realized that individual key presses could be scripted. Or possibly when I wrapped my head around macro injection. Hard to say, this thing grew on me from being an absolute space alien of an architecture to the first tool in the toolbox I reach for if I've got a new project to tackle. My advice to people when editor wars come up is that going deep on something is more importan…

Yes the day you find out that in GNU Emacs, the "u" key is actually bound to (self-insert-command) and thus can instead be made to do anything ... well,it's quite a day.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#64

Post by cmrdporcupine »

I tried out Lem a couple times, and I was impressed, but couldn't see myself moving to it. What was impressive is how starting it up just.. worked... with LSP type stuff... I was editing Rust and that all functioned. Not as featureful as my Emacs setup, but further along than I expected. And the keybindings were mostly familiar.

But so many of the things I now rely on -- company mode, treemacs, vertico, etc. are not there. The value in Emacs is the huge community of things.

Also I had some instability each time I tried it -- buffers filling up with Common Lisp backtraces, etc.

Still I really want to see some advancement in this arena, because the actual implementation of GNU emacs leaves a lot to be desired in 2024. The packages overtop of it are nice, but the core editor blocks and pauses too much.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#65

Post by cmrdporcupine »

logicprog wrote: post #60

I like the idea of a more modern Emacs that uses the full power of Common Lisp a lot, but I worry I'd miss a lot of features. Does Lem have org mode, a good LSP system, something like projectile, and the ability to display images and GUI buttons and such? And most importantly, does it have an evil mode with doom/spacemacs style leader key support?

It has LSP, but not the other things, really, from what I saw. You'd miss a lot. No idea about the modal editing, not my thing.

Of course, it could be a foundation to build on, I dunno.

EDIT: yes after watching the presentation, it has a modal/vi type mode

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#66

Post by GrumpySloth »

cesarb wrote: post #62
GrumpySloth wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I’ve downloaded the Webm file and iOS doesn’t know what to do with it, which is odd, since Apple allegedly added support for Webm in iOS 15. I’m on iOS 17.

> which is odd, since Apple allegedly added support for Webm in iOS 15. I’m on iOS 17. Which video codec? Originally webm could contain only VP8, but nowadays it can also contain VP9 and AV1. It's possible that Apple only implemented VP8 ( https://caniuse.com/webm implies that it has implemented VP8 and VP9 but has VP9 disabled by default); if this video uses a newer codec, it won't work.

Yeah. It uses VP9.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#67

Post by cmrdporcupine »

dleslie wrote: post #34
Pr0ject217 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking from personal experience, I moved from VSCode to Doom Emacs a year ago, and the on-ramp wasn't nearly long or as tough as I thought. The defaults are good, and anything else that I customized I actually just used ChatGPT/GPT-4 to generate it. It took about a month to get used to the new setup. With LSP/Magit, it feels like I'm not missing out on much from what VSCode offered, and then whenever I want to pers…

I've been using Emacs for roughly three decades; it's my favourite editor. And for sure, LSP has been an absolute game changer. Worth noting is that LSP came from Microsoft as part of their efforts to build a better editor experience; and its integration with VSCode is largely unparalleled. For example: in VSCode the user doesn't have to understand how to install a language server, it just automagically suggests allo…

"savvy enough" for emacs these days for lsp is literally "M-x package-install lsp-mode"

Earlier today I started up emacs in a C++ project after working exclusively in Rust, and I didn't have an lsp server for C++ installed. I did M-x lsp-mode and it prompted me (paraphrased): No language server for C++ installed, do you want me to go get one for you? Options are: clangd. Sure, said I, and it just went and installed it and off I went.

Granted, you'll also need company-mode and stuff, yes. And to get an IDE like experience... treemacs, projectile, etc. etc.

Yes, it's an acquired taste. But it's not like it's obsolete. It's better and more active than it's ever been. And I've been using Emacs (mostly casually) since 1992.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#69

Post by GrumpySloth »

globular-toast wrote: post #43
heinrichhartman wrote: post #3

Direct Link to "Lem" the Common Lisp based "Emacs" discussed in the talk. https://lem-project.github.io/ https://github.com/lem-project/lem

Sadly not licensed under the GPL.

I can understand wanting to restrict use of something a person created using a restrictive licence. I can’t understand being sad about someone else not restricting what they created. To me it looks like someone being sad after seeing someone else giving out free ice cream, even though the person being sad didn’t contribute to making the ice cream.

Re: The Emacsen family, the design of an Emacs and the importance of Lisp (2023)

#70

Post by kleiba »

taeric wrote: post #14
wglb wrote: post #12

Ok, as a long-time emacs user (I think I started in 1985), I am officially nerdsniped. Building the sdl2 version, there is no luck finding libSDL2_ttf, so I'll be trying the ncurses version. Looks pretty snappy so far.

Same. The live demo at the end was very effective at spiking more interest, as well.

Really? I find that the one really good design decision that survived in GNU emacs over all these years is that it does not have dialog windows. But it seems that that's pretty much what Lem does, at least when you find a file?!
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