Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 82 posts

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#61

Post by duped »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #60
Mageek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says it: “We determined that due to the persistent orientation mismatch of the towed pickup truck and tow truck combination, the Waymo AV incorrectly predicted the future motion of the towed vehicle.” It was detected, but it predicted the truck would move in a way that it didn’t end up moving.

I don't find that acceptable in any way, no human driver is going to do that and by that I mean no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. they're going to slam on the brakes and the only way that's going to happen is if momentum is too high. I understand we have to have explanations or we can't fix them, but it's just as important to understand this should nev…

> no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect

I would actually put money that this is the cause of most crashes involving multiple moving cars. Hell, a friend of mine got into an accident two weeks ago where they t-boned somebody that turned onto a median when they didn't expect it.

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#62

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

duped wrote: post #61
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find that acceptable in any way, no human driver is going to do that and by that I mean no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. they're going to slam on the brakes and the only way that's going to happen is if momentum is too high. I understand we have to have explanations or we can't fix them, but it's just as important to understand this should nev…

> no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect I would actually put money that this is the cause of most crashes involving multiple moving cars. Hell, a friend of mine got into an accident two weeks ago where they t-boned somebody that turned onto a median when they didn't expect it.

which is dealt with the explanation about momentum.

If your friend saw them and never attempted to stop then your friend needs to lose their license.

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#64

Post by what_ever »

bsaul wrote: post #49
skybrian wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but when the bug was fixed, it was fixed everywhere.

how do we know for sure that it was fixed ? What are the conditions that are fixed ?

Since the comment thread is comparing humans, how do you know the human has fixed their bug?

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#65

Post by piombisallow »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #60
Mageek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says it: “We determined that due to the persistent orientation mismatch of the towed pickup truck and tow truck combination, the Waymo AV incorrectly predicted the future motion of the towed vehicle.” It was detected, but it predicted the truck would move in a way that it didn’t end up moving.

I don't find that acceptable in any way, no human driver is going to do that and by that I mean no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. they're going to slam on the brakes and the only way that's going to happen is if momentum is too high. I understand we have to have explanations or we can't fix them, but it's just as important to understand this should nev…

"no human driver"? Really? Ever? Are you willing to bet on that assertion? Even if the human driver downs a bottle of vodka before driving?

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#66

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

isthatafact wrote: post #52
nicbou wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the cars were recalled, a team will study what happened, the problem will get fixed, simulations and tests will be created. When I make a dumb mistake, the other drivers rarely learn from it.

As someone else hinted, there may be nothing to "fix", but rather this seems like a specific situation that it had just never encountered before. Adjusting the model to cause a safe response to that particular single rare situation (either manually or by accidental training) does not solve the apparent problem that the machine is not able to comprehend the world. At least that is how I (as a non-expert) imagine these…

Even if it's not something they specifically fix, I wonder if the scenario could get added to some test suite?

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#67

Post by dmd »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #60
Mageek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says it: “We determined that due to the persistent orientation mismatch of the towed pickup truck and tow truck combination, the Waymo AV incorrectly predicted the future motion of the towed vehicle.” It was detected, but it predicted the truck would move in a way that it didn’t end up moving.

I don't find that acceptable in any way, no human driver is going to do that and by that I mean no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. they're going to slam on the brakes and the only way that's going to happen is if momentum is too high. I understand we have to have explanations or we can't fix them, but it's just as important to understand this should nev…

> no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect.

This is literally the cause of almost every human accident.

Imagine you're driving. There's a car in front of you, also driving, at the same speed as you. Do you immediately slam on the brakes? No, because you EXPECT them to keep driving. That is how driving works.

If, suddenly, they do something unexpected - like slam on the brakes, that might cause an accident. Because ... they moved in an unexpected way.

I honestly can't even figure out what you meant to say.

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#68

Post by bcrl »

dmd wrote: post #67
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find that acceptable in any way, no human driver is going to do that and by that I mean no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. they're going to slam on the brakes and the only way that's going to happen is if momentum is too high. I understand we have to have explanations or we can't fix them, but it's just as important to understand this should nev…

> no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. This is literally the cause of almost every human accident. Imagine you're driving. There's a car in front of you, also driving, at the same speed as you. Do you immediately slam on the brakes? No, because you EXPECT them to keep driving. That is how driving works. If, suddenly, they do something unexpected - like sl…

Eh? Distraction is the main cause of human accidents, not incorrect predicition of motion of objects.

https://injured.ca/5-top-causes-of-car-accidents-in-ontario/

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#69

Post by peddling-brink »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #60
Mageek wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says it: “We determined that due to the persistent orientation mismatch of the towed pickup truck and tow truck combination, the Waymo AV incorrectly predicted the future motion of the towed vehicle.” It was detected, but it predicted the truck would move in a way that it didn’t end up moving.

I don't find that acceptable in any way, no human driver is going to do that and by that I mean no human driver is going to drive into something just because it moved in a way they didn't expect. they're going to slam on the brakes and the only way that's going to happen is if momentum is too high. I understand we have to have explanations or we can't fix them, but it's just as important to understand this should nev…

If I have to choose between driving next to the nitwit texting or the software that might get tripped up in really unusual situations, I’m going with the software.

Re: Waymo recalls software after two self-driving cars hit the same truck

#70

Post by clhodapp »

hmcq6 wrote: post #47
bobsomers wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't drive if you only use the current "frame" of data as the basis for your decision. Imagine driving on the highway, a comfortable distance behind a lead vehicle. The planning software would want to slam on the brakes without predicting that the blob of sensor data in front of you is going to continue moving forward at highway speeds. That motion prediction enables the planning software to know that the space…

> That motion prediction enables the planning software to know that the space in front of your vehicle will be unoccupied by the time you reach it. I think we're all on the same page about this part but what's confusing and hilarious is why would the correct answer ever be to drive into an unmoving object? If they tried to avoid the truck and swerved and hit a different vehicle there would be no confusion here. But t…

Who said it was an unmoving object? Maybe I missed something in the story, but I got the sense that this happened in motion. The towed truck would have essentially been moving forward at an angle, hanging across the lane boundary.
Post reply on HN