> A 54-g metal (tungsten) bolt was used to deliver an impact to the dorsal aspect of the skull, resulting in a rotational acceleration of the head through the Kimwipe. Mice underwent seven repetitive less-than-mild injuries (rlmTBI, 24-inch height; W/5 mm flat) OR repetitive mild injuries (rmTBI, 36-inch height; W/5 mm flat) in 9 days. This seems very cruel, even in the face of progress. The price that animals pay fo…
A human life is worth an infinite amount of animal lives.
Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
61–70 of 108 posts
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd take it further, in my opinion, it is essentially unjustifiable in a deeply karmic way. I genuinely think that I would be able to work on a weapons guidance system and even know that it has been used to target a military vehicle without feeling much guilt but performing the kind of work you have quoted on animals would make me stop and think. And just stop. It is not worth the progress. Not worth the credits, the…
A friend in biology spent many work days doing little else than putting mice into a guillotine. Chopping off their little heads to get a snapshot of their brain chemistry after a dose of something. It definitely messed her up, and she was quite aware of the toll it was taking.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
A friend in biology spent many work days doing little else than putting mice into a guillotine. Chopping off their little heads to get a snapshot of their brain chemistry after a dose of something. It definitely messed her up, and she was quite aware of the toll it was taking.
Almost as if actions in this life have karmic consequences. Your friend has quite the next life to look forward to.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Almost as if actions in this life have karmic consequences. Your friend has quite the next life to look forward to.
You mention karma. My own take on it is that you are not so much punished for your sins as by your sins.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#65Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is actually no completely objective way in which it’s possible to determine the relative importance or sacredness of an individual’s life between one species and another. There is no particularly good objective reason for me to value my neighbours life more than a fish. However I choose to be an unabashed specieist and value any individual human life above any individual other life.
Well the inconvenient thing is that objectively we aren't more important than other species. What you're actually doing is just overriding that objective fact with a subjective one.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
These animals are anesthetized. ”The mice were anesthetized for 5 min using 4% isoflurane in a 70:30 mixture of air:oxygen” The regulations around animal testing are strict. You need to reduce all suffering to the maximum extebt possible. You can apply for research where suffering occurs, if justified by the research (say anesthetic or analgesics interfere) but good luck getting it approved. You’ll be told “come back…
And that makes it all okay? Still insanely cruel. Would you volunteer to be anaesthetised and then have your head bashed in multiple times? No? Why should animals.
This is a complex, nuanced topic, and yes, you're right, it is cruel to the mice (although, if you read the paper, they took steps to _minimize_ the mouse's suffering -- the mice were anaesthetized during the concussion, and they were euthanized after the experiment). In order to perform an experiment in animals in a research setting, you have you propose your experiment to a ~5-person committee called an IACUC (every institution doing research on invertebrates has to have one), and they review your experiment to ensure that it meets their standards of being ethical, humane, and of sound experimental design.
Because of this system, we are able to work with animal models (often mice) that teach us a lot about how our own body works, how proposed drugs could be used to treat illnesses and injuries. We do this because we really don't have a better system of learning about bodies.
We do have many _worse_ systems of learning about bodies. Centuries of experiments (many in recent memory) of experiments on humans. People experimenting with convicts, impoverished people, and people who someone decided are sub-human and are therefore ok to experiment on. That's not to say that it's ok to cause suffering to animals because we also caused suffering to humans. I bring it up because I actually derive some hope from it, that we are more aware of suffering and take more steps to reduce the suffering we cause in pursuit of knowledge. I sincerely hope that that trend will continue.
In my day job, I'm a wildlife photographer. I spend a lot of time watching animals. I see animals kill and eat eachother. I see animals get injured and sick, I see many animals die prolonged, painful deaths. Causing animal suffering is not an exclusively human domain -- much of this also happens right next to our houses, just out of our sight or awareness. I guarantee, wherever you live, that many animals are killed and eaten in your house every day, mostly without your knowledge. Of course, we cause our share of that suffering, as well, more through neglect than intent. I see countless animals dying, entangled in plastic or with guts full of plastic chunks. I see tens of thousands of fish in my city's rivers impaired or dying from chemicals in my city's runoff. I watch otters and bald eagles happily eat those animals -- they're easy to catch, after all. It's harder to be angry at the people who caused this suffering, because, well, we don't know who they are, and often _they_ don't know who they are. They just chucked a plastic bag into the road, or made a mistake on a jobsite, or were just passive participants in a very flawed system.
Sometimes, we cause that suffering through intent. Victor, the mousetrap company, has sold over a billion mousetraps, which we use because we find mice in our homes and cities to be a nuisance, or gross, or whatever the imagined offense is. Take a walk through the pest control aisle at your local big box and take a moment to imagine the unmitigated suffering that each of those chemicals cause when it reaches its intended, or unintended, target.
I also volunteer in a wildlife rehab in my state -- whenever a wild animal is found injured, it ends up in this particular building (I live in a small state). Each year, we get thousands of animals, often unintentionally but painfully injured by people. Possums that get into the rat poison and show up bleeding from their face and hands. Waterfowl that show up with lead poisoning from eating lost fishing weights. More animals hit by cars than I can count. Some animals are intentionally injured by people -- lots of bloody birds peppered with bullets, often airsoft or other non-lethal bullets that someone just shot because they were bored. We treat these animals. Many get better, many don't. We euthanize the animals that don't using the same method the scientists use in this paper -- isoflurane to anaesthetize and a second method to ensure that the animal has died painlessly. I feel fine about this practice -- the goal of a rehab is to reduce harm in the wild population and to return healthy animals to the wild. Not all injured animals get better, and the cold calculation is that it's kinder to kill the animal humanely and painlessly than to keep it alive in a state of suffering and stress.
My point is, the scale of animal suffering right outside your door is vast. It's a noble effort to want to reduce that amount of suffering. However, _most_ of the suffering that's around us in cities is pointless, un-intended suffering, and nobody gains anything from it -- the mouse in the glue trap or the fish stuck in a plastic bag. It's true that these scientists are causing animal suffering, but it's also true that there is a point to it. They are doing these experiments to understand and reduce future suffering, in people as well as animals (basically all the drugs we use in the wildlife rehab, for example, are the exact same drugs we use in human hospitals). The suffering the scientists are causing is a drop in the bucket compared to what is happening each day, unseen, in the square block around your house. It's easy to criticize their work because they are being honest about their methods -- that's part of what being a scientist means -- but in my opinion, if your goal is to reduce animal suffering, you're missing the forest for the trees. Scientists are not the target you're looking for, both in terms of the scale of animals or the magnitude of suffering.
I will say, we have made dramatic improvements in how we understand medicine's effect on the body. Computational chemistry and drug discovery has made giant strides in the past several decades, and that lets us learn by computation what we could previously only learn from animal trials. Perhaps in the future we will be able to better understand complex mechanisms in the body and represent them in software, letting us try some or all of these ideas for fixing problems painlessly, in software, rather than in meatspace. Maybe you'll help create that future.
I'll end with what I feel is a touching piece of art -- in Siberia, there is a statue called the Monument to the Laboratory Mouse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_laboratory_mou...). It stands tribute to the countless mice who gave their lives in pursuit of knowledge, and the statue, if you look at it, is a blend of a mouse and a scientist, recognizing the link between their lives and the knowledge that comes from both those lives. It's a complex piece of art that acknowledges a complex topic, I appreciate it, and maybe you will, too.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because we humans are more important than them. I don’t understand the issue. We should try to minimize the pain and suffering of these test subjects, in a few decades I am sure we will have better alternatives…
> Because we humans are more important than them. This seems to be self evident to you. Can you explain why this is true?
Mice do not extend reciprocity. They will not chase your murderer down, or avoid injury to you.
If you're searching for more than that, you've turned it into a religion. This is a practical matter.
It's unlikely that you have developmental issues that makes this impossible for you to understand intuitively. I suspect that you were miseducated.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
You mention karma. My own take on it is that you are not so much punished for your sins as by your sins.
All sin is essentially just desire. Anything you desire, you will get, in this life or the next. The trouble is most people's desires are unconscious, programmed in or are otherwise unoriginal, which leads to all sorts of trouble and misery. Simply put, to desire is to suffer and make others suffer.
Re: Novel drug could protect brains from damage after repeat concussions
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because we humans are more important than them. I don’t understand the issue. We should try to minimize the pain and suffering of these test subjects, in a few decades I am sure we will have better alternatives…
> Because we humans are more important than them. This seems to be self evident to you. Can you explain why this is true?
If I were to do the same to a human that would be a big problem.
Why is it like this? I don't know but that's just the way it is. Don't try to rationalize it, it's not supposed to be rational. Our evolutionary quirks and moral instincts are the product of biological evolution not rational thought.
It's not rational, but it is self evident, to everyone. Including you. Your appeal is more of a request to ask for the rationality behind it and hoping that when people see how irrational it is they will side with you.
People aren't rational. There beliefs are based off of instinctual desires and they construct scaffolds of rational logic around their preconceived beliefs.
For example: how do you justify the slaughter and killing of all the plants that cows rip through without a second thought? Are plants less important then animals? It's mind blowing how many plants are literally executed every time those cows chew.
This what I do is a service to justice. I eat the flesh of slaughtered cows to punish plant killers. I balance the scales of justice every time I devour a steak.
This same logic justifies cannibalism of all vegetarians too but I'm unwilling to eat vegans. You'll have to get back to me on that. It takes time to fully rationalize all my instinctual behaviors.