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Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

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Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#61

Post by timwiseman »

ap22213 wrote: post #11

When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Phd. but I became happily upper middle class, and thus got to hang out with a lot of Phds., often from good schools. Not surprisingly, many of them came from upper-class areas, and upper middle class or wealthy families. What surprised me of this bunch was the ge…

What surprised me of this bunch was the general lack of curiosity, passion, and depth that many of them had

My experience has been different from yours. Everyone I have known well that attained or even sought a PhD has had curiosity, passion, and depth.

However, many of them had narrow curiosity and passion. Engaged within their specialty and their brilliance would shine through, but outside of it they were realtively intelligent but fairly ordinary people.

Of course, there may be a bit of sample bias on my side. The PhD's I got to know tended to be focused on math or a tightly related hard science. They also tended to be the ones that were tolerant of hanging around with someone like me that liked talking about math.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#62

Post by jiggy2011 »

arethuza wrote: post #15
rglover wrote: post #4

I wish I could recall the name, but I read an essay on the general concept of this topic not too long ago. Essentially the author referenced how schools are stratified into a series of groups: lower class, lower middle class, upper middle class, and elite (not sure if these are 100% accurate). The author explained (from a series of in-person observations) the differences in education at each of the various levels. Ch…

From what I can see, there is also a pretty strong correlation in the UK between the "rank" of a school and the amount of time pupils spend playing sports (particularly rugby) as part of the curriculum - presumably for the perceived leadership/team-building that these sports are believed to promote.

Possibly because rugby is a good way to get rid of excess energy and constructively channel some aggression as well as the team building and discipline aspects.

I remember reading that it had been suggested that all schools do 1 hour of physical education/excersize before school officially starts, this would help children concentrate.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#63

Post by jiggy2011 »

sopooneo wrote: post #19
ap22213 wrote: post #11

When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Phd. but I became happily upper middle class, and thus got to hang out with a lot of Phds., often from good schools. Not surprisingly, many of them came from upper-class areas, and upper middle class or wealthy families. What surprised me of this bunch was the ge…

That is exactly my experience in growing up in a poor rural area and getting a big scholarship to a fancy private liberal arts school. I had lived and breathed ideas and that naturally led to good grades. I assumed that the first day of college would be like those rare episodes of the Simpsons where Lisa finally meets a group she fits in with. I was, frankly, devastated. These people weren't smarter or more curious,…

I agree, when I enrolled on CS I expected there would be plenty of people who had been doing interesting stuff with tech for years. While there were a few like this , the majority were just bright kids who would have otherwise done Law or Accountancy.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#64

Post by ktizo »

gaius wrote: post #24
ktizo wrote: post #22

I always suspected that the way that schools were set up was borrowed heavily from the old establishments for training the children of the lower ranks of the aristocracy in how to be military officers. The regimentation and rote of your average maths classroom was obviously never designed for teaching the subject, yet is the main memory of the experience for most people, rather than what is supposedly being taught.

Ironically, schools that were set up like that produced more literate and numerate kids, i.e. Grammar schools. In fact these were a key route to social mobility for bright but poor kids. They were killed off by politicians who relied on the lower classes for their votes...

More literate and numerate kids got selected for grammar school, that was the point.

Pointing out that those who leave grammar school have high literacy and numeracy hardly demonstrates that it is a good way of teaching, when the intake for grammar schools is those with high levels of numeracy and literacy already.

If you want to look at a true education revolution look to Finland, which is about as far from the grammar school systems as you can get, but also has an astoundingly high level of educational excellence.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#65

Post by K2h »

Nothing like a proper education to give you all the reasons an idea can't be done - instead of giving you the tools and confidence to tackle a problem no on else has even thought of and succeed. I'm still looking for the later.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#66

Post by tgrass »

solson wrote: post #58
tgrass wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. It is unlikely the average individual will work more than forty hours, so the opportunity cost is realistically the difference: 10 hours. At 7.25 an hour, pre-tax annual that's a mere $4k, for a four year degree that's $16K. Out of undergrad I went from a possible annual income of $20K (qualified for nothing but waiting tables) to $50K. The opportunity costs were paid for in the first six months.

The concept of opportunity cost has nothing to do with the "average individual" it is the cost of the "next best alternative usually forgone". I did not go to college, during most of my "college years" (18-22) I worked a total of 50-80 hours at as many 3 different jobs. That was my next best alternative. I still work 50-70 hours, between different jobs and businesses and transitioned from working class to upper middl…

I agree, individuals need to evaluate the opportunity costs for themselves based on their own circumstances.

For a policy discussion, the average or median is relevant; and you are an outlier. The median income for 25-34 with just a high school education was $25K in 2009[1].Average work week is internationally around 40 for 25-34 year olds (post-industrial) [2]

1. http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77 2. http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?QueryId=9694

[EDIT] I am terribly average, hence my personal experience above serves as a humanizing tale to convey the statistical average.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#67

Post by ap22213 »

timwiseman wrote: post #61
ap22213 wrote: post #11

When I was a poor kid from the rust belt, I dreamed of becoming an adult and getting a Phd. and talking deeply with the intellectual elite. I never got that Phd. but I became happily upper middle class, and thus got to hang out with a lot of Phds., often from good schools. Not surprisingly, many of them came from upper-class areas, and upper middle class or wealthy families. What surprised me of this bunch was the ge…

What surprised me of this bunch was the general lack of curiosity, passion, and depth that many of them had My experience has been different from yours. Everyone I have known well that attained or even sought a PhD has had curiosity, passion, and depth. However, many of them had narrow curiosity and passion. Engaged within their specialty and their brilliance would shine through, but outside of it they were realtivel…

To be clear, the lack was in relation to my expectations, not in relation to the average. That is, I had very high expectations. But, when I came to know more people with advanced degrees, what surprised me was that they were generally more like the people that I knew with lesser education, than not.

I hope you see that I'm not claiming that people with advanced degrees have less curiosity, passion, or depth than the average. In fact, I think it's slightly above average. Instead, I am pointing out that many people achieve the levels that are expected of them. Some people are expected to get a Phd. (or other advanced degree) as similarly they are expected to brush their teeth twice a day.

My observation is that (holding natural abilities constant) achieving higher education seems to have more to do with internal self-expectations than with those other attributes. And, that was the surprise to me.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#68

Post by jiggy2011 »

parfe wrote: post #54
mhurron wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dangerous does not have to mean deadly.

Said from your safe little bubble. Dangerous is "I might misstep by half an inch and orphan the children." The college educated computer workers who post here haven't experienced danger since climbing trees as children. And certainly don't experience danger professionally. Roofing a house is dangerous. Delivering Pizza is dangerous. Picking between State U vs Private U? Choosing between Python and Ruby? Choosing betw…

That's not what the article is talking about.

It is talking about the school system generally and how in the author's opinion it teaches habits/ideas that could be considered harmful to that person's judgment of future life decisions they may have to make.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#69

Post by ktizo »

parfe wrote: post #54
mhurron wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dangerous does not have to mean deadly.

Said from your safe little bubble. Dangerous is "I might misstep by half an inch and orphan the children." The college educated computer workers who post here haven't experienced danger since climbing trees as children. And certainly don't experience danger professionally. Roofing a house is dangerous. Delivering Pizza is dangerous. Picking between State U vs Private U? Choosing between Python and Ruby? Choosing betw…

Speaking as a college educated computer worker who posts here, I suspect that you might not have a clue. I spent a lot of last summer welding heavy metal, I am no stranger to hard-hats, safety boots and building sites. I have worked assembly, labour and construction, alongside code, graphics and networks. I get bored of desks quite regularly and have to go off and lift heavy things for a while. Is a bit like going to a gym where they pay you.

Be very careful of stereotypes, especially among groups that are well known for idiosyncrasies, which at the last count is pretty much all the groups.

Re: Dangerous Things You Were Taught In School

#70

Post by [deleted] »

ktizo wrote: post #69
parfe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said from your safe little bubble. Dangerous is "I might misstep by half an inch and orphan the children." The college educated computer workers who post here haven't experienced danger since climbing trees as children. And certainly don't experience danger professionally. Roofing a house is dangerous. Delivering Pizza is dangerous. Picking between State U vs Private U? Choosing between Python and Ruby? Choosing betw…

Speaking as a college educated computer worker who posts here, I suspect that you might not have a clue. I spent a lot of last summer welding heavy metal, I am no stranger to hard-hats, safety boots and building sites. I have worked assembly, labour and construction, alongside code, graphics and networks. I get bored of desks quite regularly and have to go off and lift heavy things for a while. Is a bit like going to…

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