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The rise of batteries in six charts

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Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#63

Post by panick21_ »

scythe wrote: post #42
beambot wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stationary systems for grid scale storage have amazing options - e.g. Form Energy - that needn't rely on power density benefits of Lithium chemistries. I wouldn't be surprised to see this sector dominate the GWh/yr chart in the next 6 years.

Does a battery with low cycle efficiency actually beat hydrogen for seasonal storage? The major problem with hydrogen is the fuel cell efficiency. Electrolysis is above 80%, but fuel cells are barely at 60% and it gets lower when you try to make the design more practical (lower temperature, less platinum). So batteries just have to hit 50% to compete. But that 50% includes both inherent cycle efficiency and self-disc…

Efficiency is just one of many issues for hydrogen. Storage is another issue. How fast you can dispatch convert in either direction.

I don't think seasonal storage will ever be thing. Having storage for a few days or weeks is practical.

Non of the technologies we are talking about will work for seasonal.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#64

Post by ghaff »

LUmBULtERA wrote: post #51
aresant wrote: post #4

This is all very encouraging and in particular batteries role in solar Two interesting data points to that end 1) The "duck curve" for CA is almost neutral - eg the timing imbalance between peak demand and solar power generation - battery utilization is the most straightforward solution here - https://twitter.com/baker_edmund/status/1750644294673748366 2) There has been a massive decline in rooftop solar applications…

Given the dramatically lower costs of utility-scale solar vs. residential rooftop solar, is it not better at a society level for state policy to incentivize utility over residential solar? Utility-scale battery installations likewise should be much cheaper.

Residential solar may still make sense for new construction (maybe?) in the right areas. But there was a lot of scammy behavior around home solar installation at one point. Given that home solar does not effectively give you a backup generator for free (barring a lot of batteries and specific electrical hookups as I recall), it's not clear it's a big win in general. A lot of utility things aren't ideal at the individual house level if there's an option.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#65

Post by ceejayoz »

donbatman wrote: post #62

Most of those batteries are being charged by natural gas. Batteries store electricity, they don't create it.

For now. (And not everywhere. In Norway, 90% of that power would come from hydro plants.)

One of the most common objections to a wholesale switch to renewables is "what if it's cloudy / not windy" sort of thing. Cheap, widely deployed energy storage is key to answering that objection.

They go hand in hand. More batteries, more renewables, more batteries, more renewables, etc. etc. etc.

Eventually, the obvious goal is to charge everything via renewable power.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#66

Post by bsder »

aresant wrote: post #4

This is all very encouraging and in particular batteries role in solar Two interesting data points to that end 1) The "duck curve" for CA is almost neutral - eg the timing imbalance between peak demand and solar power generation - battery utilization is the most straightforward solution here - https://twitter.com/baker_edmund/status/1750644294673748366 2) There has been a massive decline in rooftop solar applications…

> There has been a massive decline in rooftop solar applications in CA since solar energy reimbursements dropped

People also learned that the cheap Chinese solar cells die in 5-10 years and aren't worth installing unless your electricity costs are really high.

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#68

Post by inasio »

Anecdotal local evidence to exhibit 3:

There are a few go-kart places here, I hadn't been there for a few years, and now I learned that they all switched to electrical. Much quieter, no fumes, works great indoors

Re: The rise of batteries in six charts

#69

Post by stetrain »

tonymet wrote: post #58

> "Enabling the phase-out of fossil fuels" How much hydrocarbon fuel is needed to produce these batteries each year? How much fuel is needed to charge them?

Currently used? Probably quite a bit. But usually still a net emissions win for using an EV vs a fossil fuel vehicle even with current grids.

Required? None. There's nothing in EV battery production or charging or usage that requires burning fossil fuels. That fossil fuels are a major source of our current energy is part of the problem that we are also working to solve. And mass production of economical batteries is part of how we do that with renewable energy.

Building grids and vehicles that burn fossil fuels means you need to keep drilling, refining, and transporting that fossil fuel for every future kWH generated or mile driven. Forever.

A battery is made once and used for its lifetime, and most of its critical materials can be recycled at end of life into new batteries.

If you want current stats on total lifetime emissions of manufacturing and using batteries vs fossil fuels, search for "EV cradle to grave emissions" and there are a few studies. My recollection is that the results show that an EV will have lower lifetime emissions than a fossil fuel vehicle even with today's mostly dirty grids in most cases, and break-even in the worst grid mixes. As grids shift to renewables and recycling increases those numbers should only improve.

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