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Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

scientificamerican.com

61–70 of 85 posts

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#61
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is hit by climate change too. Every side has to fix theirs first or how could you (rich west, that profited mostly from unsustainable economic growth) ever make demands to anyone else. Take it from the game theory perspective. Everyone or noone. And which side is the easiest to change? To me, the answer is simple and just pointing at whataboutthem is just short sighted, like building a wall to fix internal crim…

A dike had a large and small hole with that logic will be underwater.

A large hole that one cannot reach. Game theroy requires at least two participants. Sounds logical now?

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably orders of magnitude less banal than your comments here on it.

I guess you missed I was pointing to that they put in a whole bunch of meat in the article about the apparent study and they boil it down to a very simple conclusion of "climate change"? That's not banal? (im not being flippant - I just thought the conclusion was weak, and didnt feel like I learned much.

What makes you guess that?

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#63
post #43
post #4

They focused on the water color, acidity, and the effect on the fishes, but they are not putting enough stress in the elephants in the room, the 2.4+ºC increase of average temperature northern regions over very few years (not since preindustrial times) and the massive permafrost thawing that is happening there. Yes, it is causing this. And many more things in those regions and all the world, for more time than a sing…

Is it time that we finally addressed the massive escalation of fossil fuels by countries like china?

This line of argument tends to be a delaying tactic by those that don't want the West to do anything substantial domestically. Also China's not the country that pulled out of global climate accords.

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#64
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other thoughts: iron bearing silicates often contain gold. New gold rush? Could a significant amount of gold be extracted from the water that way? It would likely be a much more environmentally friendly way to mine gold given that there would be no digging required.

If they could make it work at scale, they'd have done it with ocean water by now. That's the sci-fi dream: all the elements you could want end up dissolved in varying amounts in seawater. It's unfortunately a hard engineering problem.

It would be significantly more concentrated in this river water. As far as environmentally friendly, maybe, but not necessarily.

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#65
post #58
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you want to go force China to do things when we have a ton of improvement to do ourselves?

Focus on 95% of 5% or focus on 20% of 95%? You're choosing #1.

Do what you can control.

If everyone waits till all the rest take a step forward no one will. Until is too late, of course, then everyone loses.

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#66
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true over short-to-medium timeframes though. There absolutely are equilibria in nature, all over the place. The idea of that "constant imbalance" is always the rule is simply false. Now, as a rule at some point in time either an external force will interrupt things, or an energy source that was maintaining the equilibrium will run out. So no equilibrium will last indefinitely . But an equilibrium can be ma…

> The idea of that "constant imbalance" is always the rule is simply false. Modern ecology would like a word: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4188511/ A natural balance is the actual myth.

None of that paper contradicts anything I said.

That paper is about the often religious belief in a long-term, divinely ordained balance of nature, that is often considered "universal" or some kind of "law". And of course that's a myth.

I went out of my way to point out that equilibria can absolutely exist over the short and medium term. And I never used the term "balance of nature".

And the paper is even very clear that mathematically, equilibria absolutely do exist, obviously:

> ...it is still arbitrary just how much temporal variation can be accommodated within a process or phenomenon for it still to be termed equilibrial. Often the decision on whether to perceive an ecological process as equilibrial seems to be based on whether there is some sort of homeostatic regulation of the numbers, such as density-dependence, which A. J. Nicholson suggested as an argument against Elton's skepticism of the existence of a balance.

It merely points out that there is an "arbitrary" line that must be drawn between statistical fluctuation and the equilibrium. But if a population of a certain species in a certain area is always between, say, 400 and 600, while other species maintain their own ranges, I think we'd all agree that an equilibrium exists. It's a complete strawman to say that it has to be precisely 523 every year just because a range of 500 to 600 is "arbitrary".

The paper is describing that there is no long-term, worldwide, fixed balance of nature, which of course there's not. But nowhere does it suggest that a local ecosystem can't remain in a state of equilibrium over a short- and medium-term.

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#67
post #63
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it time that we finally addressed the massive escalation of fossil fuels by countries like china?

This line of argument tends to be a delaying tactic by those that don't want the West to do anything substantial domestically. Also China's not the country that pulled out of global climate accords.

No. China continues to increase its fossil fuel usage while fossil fuel usage in US and EU has stagnated.

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#68
post #46
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it time that we finally addressed the massive escalation of fossil fuels by countries like china?

I would settle for cleaning our own house and setting a good example

Fossil fuel usage in US and EU has stagnated but is increasing in China. I would say that the house is pretty tidy and waiting for major renovation - but the fact is - what ever pace of usage reduction does not counterbalance exponential usage increase.

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#69
post #56
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it time that we finally addressed the massive escalation of fossil fuels by countries like china?

Why do you want to go force China to do things when we have a ton of improvement to do ourselves?

Let's imagine in simple numbers that "our" usage is 10 right now and by "tons of improvements" we could reduce it to 8. In this example China has 10 too, but is increasing its usage 10% in year and would use close to 20 after 8 years. Now how much sense would these "tons of improvements" make?

Re: Why are Alaska's rivers turning orange?

#70
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Focus on 95% of 5% or focus on 20% of 95%? You're choosing #1.

Do what you can control. If everyone waits till all the rest take a step forward no one will. Until is too late, of course, then everyone loses.

It does not come for free. If China can at the same time use cheaper cost of production to compete against countries that have to increase their cost then other countries will loose. In both scenario everybody loses in the end but in the first scenario China will come out on top until then. The only winnable long term strategy is when China will play along all the time.
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