Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2) • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#61

Post by judge2020 » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:42 AM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #43

judge2020 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the most vulnerable will be easily manipulated into bypassing whatever prompts are needed. The threat vector is facebook telling users to install Instagram/FB from their own app store instead of from the App Store, both eroding their privacy (since they won't be mandated to respect the "do not track" popup) as well as training them how to install apps from third-party sources and that "it's OK to sidelo…

I doubt it, otherwise we'd see this in Android. And while it does happen of course, it's vanishingly rare. Anecdotally I have plenty of friends and family who are neither technically proficient nor well educated and they seem to be doing just fine. Instead it's a boon, especially for folks like myself who use a fair amount of software from alternative stores/installers.

As far as I know, Android also doesn't have the same level of privacy requirements and permission prompts to show the user. Facebook et al. don't have much of a reason to push a third-party app store.

In addition, exploitation might be transparent to the user, i.e. a botnet that runs in the background[0] or replacing ads in other apps to steal their revenue[1]. People use iOS and recommend it to their friends/family because of its simplicity and the built-in safeguards the App Store provides, since installing a sideloaded app is a much more involved process.

0: https://cyble.com/blog/daam-android-botnet-being-distributed...

1: https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/10/20688885/agent-smith-andr...

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#62

Post by spacebacon » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:44 AM UTC

danielvaughn wrote: post #47

bmoxb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advocating in either direction, but I'm curious what elements of iOS's UX you prefer over Android's?

Probably the navigation I guess, though it's not something I've given much detailed thought into. I just know that whenever I pick up a friend's Android, I hate the experience.

I hate the experience of a non ergonomic rectangular device in general. It’s uncomfortable to use in most situations.

For example I use my pinkie finger to support the weight of my device when I type. The weight of the iPhone 14 combined with a case is enough to leave a permanent impression in my pinkie from heavy use. A contoured case that considers how people actually hold their device would be nice.

If we were to rethink all of it from the ground up I’m sure there is a better way. Maybe even a silicone soft phone would be a good start.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#63

Post by lxgr » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:44 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #30

talkingtab wrote: post #14

This is an example of the incredible arrogance of companies like Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft and Facebook. They have the ability to pour an enormous amount of money into lawyers and lobbying so that even companies like Epic or countries like the Netherlands have little chance of controlling misbehavior. Even the IRS is having a hard time getting Microsoft to pay their 28 BILLION dollar tax bill. It should be cle…

You're simply wrong. And every court and government around the world agrees. Companies have a right to charge a fee for using their platform. Apple can not be forced to give you their SDKs, Services etc for free and help you sell that product on their marketplace for free. They have a right to charge something . You can rightfully argue that the 27% is way too high and courts have agreed. But those like Epic hypocrit…

EU regulators don’t agree.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#64

Post by lukev » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts but I will point out that the Apple ecosystem has to a large degree resisted the enshittification that has consumed others.

It is strongly more consumer friendly than alternatives. I pay my money, I receive a software or service. I use apps that are largely free of intrusive ads, scams or tracking.

As a consumer I will (and do) take this deal every day of the week.

I logged in to Windows for the first time in a while, the other day, and felt violated by the amount of ads, marketing and promotional content the OS itself was throwing in my face.

I see similar things when I watch friends use their Android phones.

No thank you.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#65

Post by mynameisnoone » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #40

In other news, all sorts of companies aren't working on Vision Pro apps.

We should've stopped at the Power Glove and Wii. VR itself is a recurring non sequitur category with a cargo cult thought process akin to "It was featured in Lawnmower Man, Brainstorm, and Hackers, so let's keep pour billions into something no one wants or needs." (And The Jetson's + Back to the Future drives the inane quest for inherently inefficient and much more dangerous flying cars.)

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#66

Post by lxgr » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:46 AM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #38

HDThoreaun wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a right to compete in a fair market, in the us at least. Apple has a monopoly on app delivery to everyone who has an iPhone, clearly their practices are anti competitive. It does not matter that judges disagree, all that means is that the current laws are deficient.

App Store is not a market and never has been. So the concept of monopolies and anti-competitive behaviour don't apply. It's why the courts treated Google differently in their Epic case to Apple.

There is no doubt at all that both are markets. The only question is whether it’s in the public interest and compatible with the law to regulate them, and courts and governments around the world are figuring that out right now.

Why the courts ruled differently for Google was that they had different deals for different participants in it, while Apple has a uniformly expensive deal for everybody.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#67

Post by lxgr » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:47 AM UTC

foogazi wrote: post #34

MBCook wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re sort of trapped between a rock and a hard place. I don’t think what they’re doing is right, don’t take this as defense. On the one hand “services revenue” (their cut from casino/exploitive games) is basically the only thing growing. people who want iPhones have them. People who want iPads have them. The Vision Pro is never going to sell 1 billion units. Wall Street demand growth so they “have to“ keep finding…

> On the other hand, doing this is absolutely alienating every developer. How did so many devs show up if the platform fees are alienating them ?

In the same way that people are purchasing internet from horrible ISPs, shopping at overpriced supermarkets etc.: A lack of competition.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#68

Post by jwells89 » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:47 AM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #58

jwells89 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me a big part of it is how gestures track, the curves used by animations, inertia, bounciness, etc. Under iOS it all feels refined and naturalistic, whereas Android’s counterparts land somewhere in the uncanny valley and come off as more mechanical (fitting given its name, I suppose). Aside from that, in general you can feel more “seams” between components and rough edges all throughout Android’s UX. It reminds m…

> you can feel more “seams” between components That's it. I've been struggling to figure out what I can't stand about iOS and it just clicked. It's the lack of seams. When something breaks I can never figure out what specifically broke, so I can't reason about my mistake (or know who to contact if it's not my mistake). I like seams so much that I'm running google play services in a sandbox (Graphene OS) so google has…

It all depends on what one’s looking for I guess. As an aesthetically inclined technical person, seams can be annoying to the point of distraction if they’re not thoughtfully worked into the design (90% of the time, they’re not).

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#69

Post by Aaargh20318 » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:48 AM UTC

dataflow wrote: post #21

detourdog wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a familiarity with how brick and mortar business work and what it was like when software came in a box. 30% or 15% for one stop global distribution and multi-jurisdictional tax collecting is a deal all day long. Could Spotify have bootstrapped itself without the App Store?

Did brick and mortar stores have a monopoly on software distribution?

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. You think that developers got a better deal when software was sold in brick and mortar stores? I remember when the App Store was first announced, there was much excitement among developers over Apple only taking a 30% cut.

Re: Apple to Developers: Heads I win, tails you lose (part 2)

#70

Post by lxgr » Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 1:49 AM UTC

Yoofie wrote: post #16

ianlevesque wrote: post #2

It’s like they want regulators to get involved. The arrogance is insane.

The regulators are asleep at the wheel. Thats why Apple feels like they can get away with all of this.

I agree that this has dragged on for at least a few years too long, but I do have some sympathy for wanting to do this right.

If a regulator comes up with an overreaching plan to open up the app markets and that law or ruling gets struck down by a court, it could cement the status quo even further.