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Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

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Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#61

Post by boothead »

mazelife wrote: post #13
tripzilch wrote: post #4

It was posts like this that made me decide to learn Python instead of Ruby, many years back when I was trying to decide what new scripting language to learn. I could not find any particular programming advantage of Python over Ruby or vice versa . But from the blog posts it was obvious which community I liked much better: Python's were to the point and technical, if making comparisons with Ruby they'd say they're bot…

Really? In my experience, Django has about the best documentation of any open source web framework. How are the docs lacking? The site's focus is definitely developer-centric. It would be nice if there was either a broader focus on that site or an alternative entry port for non-developer folks--particularly non-technical decision makers.

I'd say that used to be true for me but the pyramid guys have raised the bar when it comes to docs in the last few years - they're simply fantastic!

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#63

Post by viraptor »

stonemetal wrote: post #56
viraptor wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ruby and Python are. But look at the origin of popularity. Python was popular in academia / system scripts for a long time. Ruby's popularity comes in a large part from Rails. Now guess which community has better graphical design skills? Or from the other end - all other things being equal (and of course they aren't in reality, there are many small differences), I'd rather use a language designed by someone who speci…

From Matz's wiki entry: He graduated with an information science degree from University of Tsukuba, where he was a member of Ikuo Nakata's research lab on programming languages and compilers. Doesn't sound like someone who specializes in creating websites to me.

No, I wasn't trying to point out anything about Ruby's creators. The preference bit was a PS I could actually skip... but it's there.

I do however think that high popularity in one specific circle (rails developers) results in pretty pages about the language itself. The split was actually very clear not that long ago even in ruby itself. A couple of months ago docs for ruby core were on a really ugly and not very usable page with 3 small scrolling boxes on the top and documentation view below. It's gone now fortunately. (old version of rdoc generator theme - still visible on http://stdlib.rubyonrails.org/libdoc/rdoc/rdoc/index.html)

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#64

Post by salimmadjd »

Maybe because there are more real programmers in the Python community :)

Joking aside design is a visual representation of quality. For newcomers a better design might be all is needed to attract them. I guess then you can also argue why many In Ruby world are rather shallow :p

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#65

Post by GlennS »

cageface wrote: post #38
davidu wrote: post #9

Misleading title. Link Bait. What does the aesthetics of a web page have to do with the quality of the language? If the usability is in question, that's one thing -- but the author isn't arguing the less "Sexy" (his words) sites are less usable, simply less attractive to him. Who cares? If you pick a language based on the sexiness of various websites that are related to the language, you are probably not in the right…

Good design is a signal. If the people behind a product took the time to make something look good it's likely that they sweated the other details too. Especially when two products are close to functionally interchangeable, like Ruby and Python, design can be decisive. Engineers chronically underestimate the importance of design and marketing.

Consider that signals mean different things to different people.

These Python sites are targeted at Python programmers. What do Python programmers want? They want clean, neat and obvious. Above all they cannot abide unnecessary clutter.

The Ruby screenshots listed have the following 'visual impact' features. They may make them more attractive, but don't help with usability and potentially get take up space that could be used for information:

  Elements introduced purely for decoration.
  Oversized logos
  Pictures of people
  Designer fonts
By contrast, the Python pages are all information dense and organised with hierarchies of headers.

This is a pretty rough analysis, but perhaps it explains the difference in approach?

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#66

Post by irahul »

What do people gain by writing ill informed, flame bait artictles?

http://docs.python.org/

Official python docs are a class of its own - browse online, higher in google results, download static files, offline searching, well organized, curated content with a lot of example code etc etc.

http://ruby-doc.org/

Ruby docs don't even come close. I have been told ruby docs are mostly a volunteer effort and one man operation, and I mean no offence to whoever is the maintainer, but it isn't comparable to python's.

I haven't tried interactive python tutorial, but the official python tutorial is the best tutorial I have read.

http://docs.python.org/tutorial/index.html

I program comfortably in a number of langauges, and have read a lot of code and documentation. If I have to choose top language tutorials among c, c++, java, perl, python, erlang, lua, javascript, c#, it will be a tie between python's and "Learning Perl".

https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.4/

Django's documentation is one click away from the landing page, and the link is located where it is expected to be. Are you seriously telling me you had a problem finding the docs or the download button(so called usability problem)?

FWIW, I find rails guide better than django docs, but that doesn't make the django docs unusable or bad.

http://guides.rubyonrails.org/

http://ringce.com/hyde Jekyll's counterpart is hyde. A simple google search for "python jekyll" would have told you that.

Comparing Google App Engine to Heroku or DHH's landing page Adrian's, and concluding Python is ugly is ridiculous. To be honest, I find the whole article ridiculous.

I have nothing against design and people making pretty shit. I just take exception to lame claims about a language's usability based on how pretty the landing page looks. And in the case of python docs and django tutorials, it doesn't even look bad, and is perfectly usable.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#67

Post by creamyhorror »

glesica wrote: post #22

This reminds me of the jQuery docs situation. Every month or so somebody comes up with an alternative way to access them that's flashy and uses frames with low contrast text and lots of shadows and gradients. I play with the site for 60 seconds thinking "this is neat", and then go back to using the official docs because they come up in a Google search. I don't think I've ever actually accessed the Python docs in any…

And Ruby is actually (slightly) older than Javascript (96/97). Funny how things look when you've been seeing JS for a decade and a half and Ruby is this new shiny thing (but it actually isn't). Same with Python.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#68

Post by yazmeya »

givanfp wrote: post #51
Trufa wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true, I'm really more likely to put my credit card in a website that looks awesome than in one that doesn't. It immediately gives you some sense of trust. Disclaimer: you should't base your credit card use only on design!

Have you ever seen MSDN or JDK docs?

yes. horrible from any perspective.

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#69

Post by pwf »

cageface wrote: post #38
davidu wrote: post #9

Misleading title. Link Bait. What does the aesthetics of a web page have to do with the quality of the language? If the usability is in question, that's one thing -- but the author isn't arguing the less "Sexy" (his words) sites are less usable, simply less attractive to him. Who cares? If you pick a language based on the sexiness of various websites that are related to the language, you are probably not in the right…

Good design is a signal. If the people behind a product took the time to make something look good it's likely that they sweated the other details too. Especially when two products are close to functionally interchangeable, like Ruby and Python, design can be decisive. Engineers chronically underestimate the importance of design and marketing.

It's definitely a signal, though I don't take to mean quite what you do...

It's only 'likely that they sweated the other details' if you assume infinite manpower and resources. In reality, all of the very finite resources that went into picking the right shade of beige for the background could have instead gone into improving the actual tools.

I don't think it's possible for an engineer to underestimate the importance of design and marketing for an engineering tool.

Have you seen nginx.org?

Re: Dear Python, Why Are You So Ugly?

#70

Post by recursive »

dancablam wrote: post #44

The astounding number of devs asking "who cares?" sums up one of my biggest pet peeves. Would you buy a car that had a modern engine but a chassis and interior from 1983? Maybe if you wanted to save a few bucks - but your friends would still tease you for owning an old clunker. True, Python is a beautiful language that's stayed modern in the face of the evolving web, and I've come across many Python sites that do loo…

> Would you buy a car that had a modern engine but a chassis and interior from 1983?

Yes. I'd prefer it to one of a million cars that all look the same.

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