Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

mailgun.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 279 posts

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#61

Post by donmcronald »

kaetemi wrote: post #35

Is there any service that can process DMARC report e-mails? Those mails with zips with indecipherable XMLs inside them are a bit useless. Something that takes the junk, gives a nice human readable dashboard, and informs me if something is wrong, would be nice.

The DMARC industry is nuts. Most services charge a lot for what amounts to retrieving emails and doing a little XML parsing. It’s mostly transient data too, so it’s not like paying for a ton of redundancy is worth it.

IMHO, they’ve taken something that should be simple and turned it into a complex system that needs a ton of infrastructure because they all want a SaaS business. Everyone pays for the cost of scaling when simple sharding would do for most users.

I’d love to have a simple, self hosted DMARC analyzer running on something like PocketBase.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#62

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

Please describe ‘easily unsubscribe’ - subjective terms like this don’t work when you’re dealing with the profit focused marking department of scumcorp.

I don’t want to log into your service or explain why I want to unsubscribe or chose which mailing lists I want to unsubscribe from (read: All of them) nor do I want to deal with your dark patterns such as colouring the ‘cancel my request to unsubscribe’ button green and ‘yes really unsubscribe me’ red.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#63

Post by dexwiz »

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #62

Please describe ‘easily unsubscribe’ - subjective terms like this don’t work when you’re dealing with the profit focused marking department of scumcorp. I don’t want to log into your service or explain why I want to unsubscribe or chose which mailing lists I want to unsubscribe from (read: All of them) nor do I want to deal with your dark patterns such as colouring the ‘cancel my request to unsubscribe’ button green…

  Senders will need to implement a single-click unsubscribe link within emails if they haven’t already, to allow recipients to easily opt out.
It does in the article. The industry has clear definitions for things like one click unsubscribe versus two click confirmation.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#64

Post by dexwiz »

stefan_ wrote: post #15
cassianoleal wrote: post #5

> These mandates will only affect bulk senders, defined by Google as senders with volumes of 5000 or more messages to Gmail addresses in one day. This is not a requirement for a personal self-hosted email.

Indeed, self-hosted email is commonly rejected despite doing all these things. Google et al have successfully turned email into the domain of a few SaaS, and at half of them blatant spammers can message millions with no record of consent with the most obvious scams and have it delivered into the inbox. Hell, most spam these days I get from hacked Gmail accounts. The game is rigged, as they say.

I dunno who has your email but I’ve had a gmail account for 15+ years and never had a serious spam issue. The promotions and social folder system also seems to be highly accurate when filtering social media updates and clear ads out of my main inbox.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#65

Post by xyzzy123 »

j16sdiz wrote: post #45
xyzzy123 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would also allow a pretty trivial bypass using ipv6. A sizeable % of ip-based rate limits are breakable if you can use v6; iirc for a long time google web properties had bypassable rate limits if you knew about this.

Have you tried it? In my experience, gmail is lot stricter on ipv6. They have been requiring SPF and rDNS on IPv6 before this announcement.

Yep I am talking about maybe a decade ago; google have fixed the issues I knew about but lots of systems still only limit v4 effectively.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#66

Post by riffraff »

kragen wrote: post #52
TheCycoONE wrote: post #25

DKIM, SPF, and DMARC are old hat and implemented by anyone serious for years. What's buried in this article is the required https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8058 support for one-click unsubscribe posts. I don't see many messages in my inbox yet with that.

also it violates longstanding security measures against malicious prank unsubscribes; it means that if you forward an email list message to someone else, they can unsubscribe you without your consent as a prank

I think unsubscription without requiring login should be already mandated by some regulations (CAN-SPAM law and maybe GDPR).

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#67

Post by LoganDark »

orliesaurus wrote: post #40
darylteo wrote: post #32

How does this interact with transactional emails / 2FA / password resets? If 5000 people request a 2fa code in a month, I have to give them a unsubscribe header as well? Or magic login links? If I don't provide a list-unsubscribe header: do these emails then get blocked and noone can log in ? If I provide a list-unsubscribe header, what is the expected behaviour if they do click the Unsubscribe button? - tell them th…

You're talking about Transactional emails? You cant unsubscribe from TRANSACTIONAL emails. That's why they're transactional...not marketing. It's really important to differentiate that.

Well, I wish my ISP would stop marking ads and promotions as "transactional". Just because they have a system that prohibits unsubscribing, doesn't mean they should be allowed to abuse that system.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#68

Post by dexwiz »

darylteo wrote: post #32

How does this interact with transactional emails / 2FA / password resets? If 5000 people request a 2fa code in a month, I have to give them a unsubscribe header as well? Or magic login links? If I don't provide a list-unsubscribe header: do these emails then get blocked and noone can log in ? If I provide a list-unsubscribe header, what is the expected behaviour if they do click the Unsubscribe button? - tell them th…

Its 5000/day for marketing, and if you are sending 5000 emails a day, you probably should have unsubscribe links. https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#requirements-5k You also need a link, not just list-unsubscribe, and it is specifically for marketing emails.

In my experience, Google is pretty accurate in figuring out transactional versus marketing. They don't tell their heuristics, but you don't think engineers who build web crawlers cannot build email classifiers? They have reliably been sorting my promotional emails from transaction emails for almost a decade now.

But off the top of my head when working on an email marketing platform: sender address, message subject and content, single message or bulk inbound at a given time, open rates, click rates, unsub rates, bounce rates. Part of sender reputation is ESPs building a profile of what kind of email you send from an address.

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#69

Post by behringer »

stubish wrote: post #59
MaxGabriel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% open rate on transactional emails feels too high to me. Something like an e-commerce purchase might kick off multiple emails (purchase made, shipped, arrived), none of which the user opens

Kicking off a chain of emails a user cannot easily opt out of could well be the sort of emails users want to lose. There probably should be a one-click 'stop emailing me' button, for this and future purchases. Which would be a support burden, yes.

I watch for the subject line. I don't actually care what the content says...

Re: Gmail and Yahoo’s 2024 inbox protections and what they mean for email programs

#70

Post by stubish »

kragen wrote: post #52
TheCycoONE wrote: post #25

DKIM, SPF, and DMARC are old hat and implemented by anyone serious for years. What's buried in this article is the required https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8058 support for one-click unsubscribe posts. I don't see many messages in my inbox yet with that.

also it violates longstanding security measures against malicious prank unsubscribes; it means that if you forward an email list message to someone else, they can unsubscribe you without your consent as a prank

Forwarding an email should strip this header, probably along with most of the other irrelevant ones potentially containing sensitive information the user isn't aware of. Forwarding an email with GMail only keeps the From, To, Date and Subject headers.
Post reply on HN