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Why America hates its children

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Re: Why America hates its children

#61
post #55
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American cities and suburbs are so low density that they end up losing money because infrastructure is spread out over such a large area that taxes collected per square mile aren't enough to keep things working. This is very much false. I don’t know why this misinformation is so widespread, but even a glance look at the municipal budgets is enough to see the facts contradict it. The typical suburb only spends aroun…

It depends on the age of the suburb/city. Newer areas do fine. Infrastructure eventually needs not just maintenance, but massive replacement. Roads, bridges, sewer systems, all start to fall down. Ideally a city would estimate the worst cost of replacement at the time infrastructure is first built, and set aside money from year 1 such that the replacement cost is fully funded when the roads/pipes/bridges wear out. If…

OK, what I wrote was incorrect. What I had in mind was that cities spend less than 10% on road infrastructure, but I carelessly didn't specify that. You seem to understand these issues much better than a typical person, and I think you deserve a careful and thorough reply.

> Shoreline WA [2], 22% of the budget goes towards utilities ($82.809m), about 38% goes towards capital projects ($136.065m).

> (...)

> Shoreline School District has a budget of around 160 million [3], which is less than the city spends on utilities + capital projects

First, the Shoreline School District's budget is more like $220M. $168M is just the General Fund, additional $26M go to capital projects, and $35M go to debt service. That's $16k per student, which, by the way, is around 50% more than the private school tuition for my children in Seattle, which does not exactly makes me sympathetic to the narrative of starved school budgets being cut to pay for infra.

Worth noting is that many Shoreline parents pay for private education, but do not pay for private roads or water or sewer. Thus, $220M is underestimate of educational spend, whereas infrastructure spend is not underestimated by looking at the budget.

Second, if the argument is that low density makes the infra spend untenable, you need to compare the spend to the hypothetical spend in the alternate universe where the density is higher. In that universe, we'd still spend on infrastructure, though maybe somewhat less (not a given though: we'd have fewer miles of roads to maintain, but average right of way would become much busier, and work on busy road is typically much more expensive). So let's dive into Shoreline budget to see what spend could look like in more dense world.

The $136.1 capital spend is split as follows:

* $43M is General Capital, and $92M is Road Capital

* The $43M General Capital fund is split into $5M spend on Maintenance Facility, $5M on "Debt Service and Other", and $33M is spent on capital improvements to city parks. I'll assume that all of this spend would remain in denser world (unless denser world means fewer/smaller city parks per capita).

* $92M is spent roughly in half between Pedestrian/Non-Motorized Projects, and Safety Operations (which I assume is mostly motorized infrastructure).

* Half of pedestrian spend is on a pedestrian bridge over I-5, which would still be built if Shoreline was denser (in fact, we might then need more pedestrian bridges). The other half is building new sidewalks. More pedestrians means fewer roads, but more sidewalks required, so it's hard for me to estimate how sidewalk spend which change with increased density, but let's say that increased density means spend on sidewalks could be cut by half, so we'd see something like $15M savings.

* In the Safety Operations (i.e. motorized) spend, large majority is N 145th St improvements. This is the major arterial in Shoreline, and would likely still be part of Shoreline's budget if it was denser. It would probably be shorter then, so let's cut the spend by half. The rest we can also cut in half, for $20M in total savings.

* Worth noting is that road resurfacing spend (which accounts for most of road maintenance) is less than $3M, which is a tiny fraction of the whole budget. Maintaining suburban roads is very cheap.

* Thus, increased densification would result in savings of something like $35M, which is a quarter of capital projects.

* If you do the same exercise for utilities, you'll find that a third of it is surface water spend (storm drains etc), which would probably be cut by half in denser world. Two thirds is wastewater spend, which would be reduced by much less in denser world (as the spend scales much more with volume than with length of the system).

* To sum up, densification would save Shoreline something like $60M, which is a small fraction of educational spend. In fact, much more would be saved if Shoreline School District got its costs under control, to the level of my private school in Seattle.

Re: Why America hates its children

#62
post #59
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is state vs federal funding relevant here? What is the point that you are trying make? Im confused here. That we needs the Feds to slash enormous school budgets in failing places like NYC, Baltimore or Chicago, to the levels seen in more successful places like Idaho which have lower budgets?

Midwestern states get farming subsidies. I know several people in the Midwest who, after making snarky comments about West Coast schools, will you l happily take that $1000+/mo check, people that don't have kids. If the federal government is going to regulate the schools, as they do, discussing whether they should help pay for it out of the enormous federal budget seems relevant to me. I can think of a lot of differe…

I have no idea how farming subsidies are relevant here. Farm subsidies are tiny fraction of US federal government spend. US Federal Government already spends more than 5 times as much money on education than it does on agricultural subsidies, and 50 times as much on military than it does on agricultural subsidies. Even that tiny spend is mostly benefitting the consumers rather than farmers, in the form of lower food prices. If we redirected all agricultural subsidies to educational spending, because federal educational spending is only a small fraction of total educational spending, total educational spending in US would only grow by measly 2%.

I have no idea why anyone would bring agricultural subsidies in the context of education spend, other than to signal disdain for the outgroup. This is simply completely irrelevant.

Re: Why America hates its children

#63
post #61
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the age of the suburb/city. Newer areas do fine. Infrastructure eventually needs not just maintenance, but massive replacement. Roads, bridges, sewer systems, all start to fall down. Ideally a city would estimate the worst cost of replacement at the time infrastructure is first built, and set aside money from year 1 such that the replacement cost is fully funded when the roads/pipes/bridges wear out. If…

OK, what I wrote was incorrect. What I had in mind was that cities spend less than 10% on road infrastructure, but I carelessly didn't specify that. You seem to understand these issues much better than a typical person, and I think you deserve a careful and thorough reply. > Shoreline WA [2], 22% of the budget goes towards utilities ($82.809m), about 38% goes towards capital projects ($136.065m). > (...) > Shoreline…

Part of what cannot be determined here is what long term costs Shoreline will face when its (relatively new) infrastructure starts to fail. Those are the kinds of costs Seattle is facing now with its stormwater projects, and its failing bridges. "old bridge suddenly collapsing" doesn't show up in a year's budget proposal, but rather it shows up in next year's proposal under "unexpected costs", but really, everyone knew the bridge was going to fall down soon, so how unexpected was it?

Though compared to Seattle, Shoreline isn't going to have as much of a "random bridges falling down" problem. :-D

But that aside, I did notice this

> In fact, much more would be saved if Shoreline School District got its costs under control, to the level of my private school in Seattle.

Public schools cost more to operate because they have to serve everyone, including those with special needs and learning disabilities. They have to help feed children who do not have enough food, and they are expected to have after school programs from children that do not have a safe place to go home to (which, given how early schools get out, is honestly a problem for many families, public or private school).

As more children from (comparatively) wealthy go to private schools, the average cost of schooling the kids in public schools actually goes up, as a larger % of the kids left need extra help and support.

> The other half is building new sidewalks.

I am happy that the residents in Shoreline have finally decided to stop running over pedestrians! But seriously, Shoreline needs more sidewalks, it'll honestly add a lot to property values there.

> Second, if the argument is that low density makes the infra spend untenable, you need to compare the spend to the hypothetical spend in the alternate universe where the density is higher. In that universe, we'd still spend on infrastructure, though maybe somewhat less

There would also be a lot more revenue per given square mile. You could take my Seattle neighborhood and 2x the density w/o much harm to the "feel" of the neighborhood. If you 3x it, now you can add tons of commercial activity, allow small business owners to actually live close to their business (why does my barber have to drive in to work? Oh because zoning makes living in Seattle absurd), and cities start to actually make money.

The economics of dense cities are incredibly different, and they start a virtuous cycle that works out really well for everyone. Sadly America shut down all the goodness when we added strict zoning laws.

Also where the heck are you spending only 11k on private school? The non-religious private schools in Seattle that I looked at cost 30-40k. (Heck the at home daycare we use right now costs over 25k a year!)

Re: Why America hates its children

#64

Also, recently in the Atlantic: Why Parents Struggle So Much in the World’s Richest Country Gift link: https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2024/01/america-f...

Interesting article. Seems weird to me, as a Brit, why there isn't more pressure from American parents against guns. One might expect them to think "OK, I like having the right to own a gun, but I don't want kids entire lives to revolve (pardon the pun!) around the threat of gun violence, so there needs to be some kind of control". But apparently not... I know someone (British) who's engaged to an American and in the…

> there isn't more pressure from American parents against guns

Because its not salient. Your child has a higher likelihood of being struck by lightning twice than to be killed in a school shooting.

Re: Why America hates its children

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting article. Seems weird to me, as a Brit, why there isn't more pressure from American parents against guns. One might expect them to think "OK, I like having the right to own a gun, but I don't want kids entire lives to revolve (pardon the pun!) around the threat of gun violence, so there needs to be some kind of control". But apparently not... I know someone (British) who's engaged to an American and in the…

> there isn't more pressure from American parents against guns Because its not salient. Your child has a higher likelihood of being struck by lightning twice than to be killed in a school shooting.

Ok that makes sense :)

Re: Why America hates its children

#66

> How many articles have I read about whether children should be allowed on airplanes, or at weddings, or in restaurants? American culture’s view of children as burdensome is a self fulfilling prophecy. Parents may sarcastically quip about their children’s imposition on their careers, finances, and sex lives, but they practice genuine resentment when they get some “me time” by encouraging a child’s screen time addict…

@dang: The above comment was a draft which I'd love to remove.
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