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Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

drewdevault.com

61–70 of 159 posts

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#61
post #51
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The initial cost of ownership is the only thing that matters?

for entry level, eg someone buying a 3D printer for the first time, absolutely

But the author isn't saying (only) "Prusa is losing the ultra-beginner market." That's moving the goal posts. The author is making sweeping claims beyond just that market, right?

When you're in the market for a new TV or phone or whatever, do you buy the absolute cheapest one you can find and then decry the other players in the market because their stuff is clearly low value because the ICO is higher? Maybe you do, that's your choice of course, but there are plenty of people who buy, for example, Apple because they see beyond the ICO.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#62

I think this is missing a little context. I believe Prusa and to some extent the older market leader Creality were sideswiped by a better product. A group of engineers got together and formed Bambu Labs. Their printer are all less than 2 years on market and they have become the new standard for the simple fact they just work. 3d Printing historically has been "early adopter". I'm long term tech. It took me a month of…

Prusa was better positioned than anyone else in the market to do exactly what Bambu did, but actively chose not to out of a combination of stubborness and hubris.

Prusa had an established reputation for relatively low hassle, premium machines.

There legitimately isn't much in the Bambu machines that didn't already exist in some form in the high end hobbyist space. What Bambu did was take the best of what was out there and combine it into a single coherent, easy to use package. And, just as critically, they cost-engineered it for mass production.

Prusa has long resisted anything outside their own ecosystem. They invest crazy amounts of effort into reimplementing and reinventing things because NIH syndrome is deeply engrained into their company culture. They clung to using 8 bit controllers long past their expiration date. They spent years working and reworking their flagship $2000 XL which still isn't widely available and suffers fundamental design flaws that will result in it being slower and producing worse prints than its competitors when it is.

A lot of this is Prusa refusing to move past their hobbyist roots. Their printers are still made largely out of aluminum extrusion and printed parts -- this is a great way for a hobbyist to prototype one-off designs, but it's an abysmal way to mass produce a machine.

Bambu's great innovation is the fact that the machine is largely stamped sheet metal and injection molded parts. This results in a machine that is sturdier, higher quality, and cheaper than the way Prusa insists on doing things. It requires a significant investment in tooling upfront -- this was the great tell that Bambu wasn't some scrappy startup when they launched their Kickstarter; they were easily deep into six if not seven figures in tooling costs before the X1 was ever publicly announced.

Prusa was one of the few players in the industry who had the resources and could have done all of this. They actively chose not to. They were stagnant and seemed to think they could continue selling $1000 bed slingers forever. The market finally moved on.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#63
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It need not be predatory, nor need it be mandatory for users to take advantage of these features, nor need it be proprietary or non-free.

Then what's the point? It would take effort to develop these "features", the only benefit of which would be predatory. For example: > Bambu’s cloud slicer is a massive lost opportunity for Prusa. Bambu's cloud slicer is a complicated SaaS undertaking that incurs hosting and storage costs, yet doesn't (so far as I know) generate any revenue for Bambu Labs. So why do it, unless you want to make sure that a copy of what…

How are any of those examples predatory? If you're in a hurry and want something they just remove friction.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#64
From experience in the 3D printing space, it's too early to say Bambu out-Prusa'd Prusa, because there hasn't been enough time to know whether the Bambu printers will outlast a Prusa printer. The business model the author is discussing is not unlike the business model for Glowforge, and based on my wife's experience in that industry I'm not sure that business model is working out so well.

I've been printing continuously on a pair of Mk3s for 4+ years, minimal maintenance. (That is, wear and tear on print plates and nozzles, and one thermistor replacement.) Maintenance is important once you venture beyond hobbyist needs.

I did buy a Bambu P1S instead of a Mk4 this year when it was time to add a another printer for my wife's side gig. It's a great machine, except when it has problems. The software is bad at diagnosing the problem, and the UI gets really confused on status messages, and the software wants nothing more than to hold your hand down the wrong path to fix the problem. There's a veneer to everything Bambu that makes it look good as long as you don't look too closely. I'll see where this printer is at after 4+ years of continuous printing, but based on my present experience I'd be surprised if my P1S is still running in 2 years. (And no, its not lost on me that as a Prusa purchaser I bought from their competitor this time around.)

I expect Bambu to push Prusa to compete on features - I am fine as a non-hobbyist paying a higher premium for reliability.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#65
post #46

I have a lot of respect for Armin, but it's pretty clear he doesn't really understand the specifics of what he's talking about here. > people are complaining (The MK4 firmware is not Open Source) the link here is to a reddit post ( https://www.reddit.com/r/prusa3d/comments/10g6fgv/prusa_givi... ) in which the complaint is not only not about the MK4's firmware, it's also not even about something not being open source.…

I think what he's actually misinterpreted are complaints that the Mk4 controller board isn't open source.

Prusa has long bragged about their hardware being open source and they've made an about face on that over the last couple of years.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#67

>Imagine a Prusa where it works out of the box, you can fire up a slicer in your browser which auto-connects to your printer and prints models from a Prusa-operated model repository, paying $10 for a premium model, $1 off the top goes to Prusa, with the same saved payment details which ensure that a fresh spool of Prusa filament arrives at your front door when it auto-detects that your printer is almost out. The prin…

It need not be predatory, nor need it be mandatory for users to take advantage of these features, nor need it be proprietary or non-free.

But it always is...

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#68
post #25

> They have been struggling as of late, and came under criticism for making the firmware of their Mk4 printer non-free. One of the biggest reasons I didn't choose a Mk4 was precisely because they moved away from open source. If you're like me an values open source highly and is looking for a printer, the VORON printers are the way to go. They're DIY printers where you assemble them yourself, so they're not for you if…

I have a half assembled Trident on a table behind me right now. Like you, I greatly value open source. I didn't realize at the time I ordered the Trident that the Mk4 firmware was non-free, but Prusa didn't make the final cut regardless. In my mind, Prusa hasn't been showing enough innovation. The bed-slinging Mk4 coming out at the price it did against CoreXY printers like Voron and Bambu was like bringing a knife to…

Pretty much this ^^^. Some people just want to _use_ tools and some people want to build/hack/tinker with them. Voron and Bambu seem to cover both use cases. Annex Engineering has some cool stuff in the 'build' category as well.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#69
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. I have used Prusas, as well as many other 3D printers. I know how they are distinguished from the rest. The thing is, there really isn't much of a difference between an Ender 3 and a Mk4 that a typical consumer (that is, not an enthusiast) would understand as justifying the bigger price tag. The Mk4 is a better printer , by a long shot, but not by the same factor as the price tag. The Mk4 price completel…

> The thing is, there really isn't much of a difference between an Ender 3 and a Mk4 that a typical consumer (that is, not an enthusiast) would understand as justifying the bigger price tag. I'm not sure what makes you feel so comfortable deciding that for everyone? Having vastly better components that are much less likely to fail is something I think anyone would find valuable. If you give an absolute beginner an MK…

> And yet, they can't make printers fast enough.

I generally agree with your comments but I think you've accidentally brought up a really good point. Prusa would do well do improve on getting their new models out the door faster. The Mk3S was getting fairly long in the tooth before the Mk4 came out. The printer they introduced before that also suffered from a very long development cycle. This leads to lost sales in a competitive market.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#70
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I have to ask if you've ever used a Prusa, no really this time? Prusa users use Prusaslicer, not Cura. Printables.com often hosts gcode files that require no slicing at all by end users. These points completely aside -- do you think 3d printer novices are going to last long without learning a slicer? Is that really your assertion? Also, is installing Cura a "nightmare" ? So much explosive language!

Yes, I have used a Prusa, but I have mostly used Cura with it. The bulk of my experience with Prusas started with finding one at the local hackerspace, firing up Cura and finding a profile for it, getting it to work and never questioning this procedure again. I used Prusaslicer once or twice, but nevertheless, I cut my teeth on Cura so I used the tool I knew. Not that the comment you're replying to alleges that most…

If you're sick of arguing maybe you shouldn't be starting arguments?

What you say makes very little sense. Prusa has an audience, you are not that audience. So go buy something else and write about how great your experience is instead of kicking Prusa, especially if you haven't bothered using their slicer, which is absolutely fantastic, runs locally and supports linux.

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