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Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

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Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#61

Post by WalterBright »

michaelochurch wrote: post #31
ryanmolden wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is definitely a balance to strike between just venting your spleen and calling out real douchebaggery. I have always suspected the "never talk about being screwed over/speak ill of a previous employer" meme is strikingly similar to the kind of meme sociopaths would want to become "the norm". Absent anyone talking about their experiences (good or bad) there would really be much less downside for terrible b…

I have always suspected the "never talk about being screwed over/speak ill of a previous employer" meme is strikingly similar to the kind of meme sociopaths would want to become "the norm". Not sociopathy. Managerial tribalism. To be fair, you probably wouldn't want to work with a company that didn't respect technical talent, right? Well, that goes both ways. Most people making hiring decisions are managers, and ther…

The "speak no ill of a previous employer" is not about tribalism or protecting other managers. It's that your prospective employer doesn't care to be disparaged by you when you leave them.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#62

Post by mattmanser »

latch wrote: post #41
mattmanser wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was chatting with a friend of mine on Thursday that MS seem to have a 'get shit done' team that magically pops up every now and again. Like the EF migrations project was looking really, really awful[1] and someone's managed to turn it around and it's ended up lookig like it might be great[2]. Or like when Rails/Django were the talk out of the town and a new MVC PHP framework came out every day and ASP.Net was looki…

You are talking about small projects, which, in the scale of things, are insignificant. They are all DevDiv projects, and even within DevDiv, they are fairly small. It's a company of 92000 employees, with some of their projects worth billions quarterly. Your perspective, from your examples, is completely skewed.

Other examples include Windows Phone and XBox both of which seemingly came from nowhere in a 'just get it done' style.

There's some real love and skill that's been put into the XBox for example, just browse around it some time.

My perspective is coloured by the developer stuff as that's what I'm most interested in.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#63

Post by illumos »

michaelochurch wrote: post #28

OP's story is unfortunate, but this is tame compared to some of the things I've seen or heard of in the past five years. If this is TC-worthy, I've seen enough dirt to fertilize the Sahara. This is a case of company and person who didn't work out, but it doesn't leave me feeling that Microsoft was unethical or mean-spirited about it (which is more than I can say of many, many companies). Badly run, sure, but not evil…

Thanks so much for sharing this! Your other comment(link: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3871688) and this post show(link: http://skloverworkingwisdom.com/blog/index.php/performance-i... ) how common this is. In my personal experience, even startups do this.

Which I guess is more fault to US law having high severance cost, than people being sociopaths.

In fact, don't try to anthropomorphize the companies (Bryan Cantryl said that out loud recently about Oracle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... , but it applies to all companies and all bosses).

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#64

Post by stevenj »

In my experience, I haven't gotten along with 9/10 people I've met who work at -- and are passionate about -- Microsoft.

It's not because they're not driven to succeed (they are). Nor is it because they're overly confident.

It's because all 9 have lacked empathy and/or the ability to listen.

Now I can tolerate that, provided you do great work.

I've learned that if you can't separate the art from the artist, you may not enjoy much.

But since I think Microsoft creates pretty crappy art, its employees' personalities have really rubbed me with wrong way.

(Which I find interesting, because I think empathy plays an integral role in making great products.)

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#65

Post by latch »

mattmanser wrote: post #62
latch wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about small projects, which, in the scale of things, are insignificant. They are all DevDiv projects, and even within DevDiv, they are fairly small. It's a company of 92000 employees, with some of their projects worth billions quarterly. Your perspective, from your examples, is completely skewed.

Other examples include Windows Phone and XBox both of which seemingly came from nowhere in a 'just get it done' style. There's some real love and skill that's been put into the XBox for example, just browse around it some time. My perspective is coloured by the developer stuff as that's what I'm most interested in.

Windows Phone came out 3+ years (almost 4) after the iPhone. It was the most obvious and slowest product launch in recent memory. It also hasn't been a great success. If Windows Phone is proof that Microsoft is doing well....It also wasn't some spontaneous/organic product that just sprung up. It was a massive coordinated company-wide event that took years to "pull off".

As for the Xbox, it's a huge loss leaders. The division is billions in the red. XBox 360 (which had a 33% failure rate) started to make a bit of money last year (or maybe the year before that)..but it's a fraction of what they've put into it. In the long term, the strategy of owning the living room might work out, but so far, no, it neither "came out of nowhere" nor is it a succes. The problem with consoles is that, you are only as good as your current generation. Also, no one has managed to crack the living room yet, and they've all tried. History tells us it's a waste of money.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#66

Post by chromatic »

harryf wrote: post #32
Jare wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please kickstarter that book right away. Dilbert identifies problems but does not provide solutions, only an outlet for the rage.

That's a great idea. Now you've got me thinking... Initial hurdle is I'm in Europe, based in Switzerland and kickstarter T&C require US citizenship. Looking for solutions right now (anyone with advice appreciated)

I'm happy to offer publishing advice. Contact information is on my profile page.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#67

Post by astrodust »

iamtoby2003 wrote: post #55

I completely understand how OP feels. but the sad truth is when companies grow bigger, bureaucracy happens. i dont believe other giant tech companies are doing any better. you either suck it up and play the game along or bail and start your own. sometimes you have to grow up and face the truth that no leaders like rebels. if u want to change the game, become a leader first....

Microsoft allegedly has fourteen layers of management. They're not the biggest company around, many have significantly more employees, but this is a disproportionate amount of bureaucracy.

A more tightly run ship can get that down to six layers at most, some even less. The shorter the chain of command, the more reactive the company will be.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#68

Post by codeonfire »

robryan wrote: post #56

Not sure I'd feel comfortable working at a place where you can be fired and escorted from the building after 5 years because you voiced your concerns about company direction.

Which is why everyone should aspire to be majority owner of their business. Because that place your not comfortable with is every job on the planet.

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#69

Post by kitsune_ »

harryf wrote: post #32
Jare wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please kickstarter that book right away. Dilbert identifies problems but does not provide solutions, only an outlet for the rage.

That's a great idea. Now you've got me thinking... Initial hurdle is I'm in Europe, based in Switzerland and kickstarter T&C require US citizenship. Looking for solutions right now (anyone with advice appreciated)

Hey, I'm from Switzerland too, are you working on anything interesting atm?

Re: Frustration, Disappointment And Apathy: My Years At Microsoft

#70

Post by tianshuo »

kposehn wrote: post #24
harryf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are ways to get changes made in Big Co. Very true. I have this book in my head that might one day get written. Title would be something like "Intreprenauring: Innovating within Large Stupid Organizations" with a focus on practical "hacks" for getting stuff done. Probably all been said by Dilbert already though.

> "Intreprenauring: Innovating within Large Stupid Organizations" Please write that book

Really looking forward to this...
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