3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public • Hacker News Board

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#61

Post by oakwhiz » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #48

mrweasel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death sentence is probably a bit much, but if management takes actions that they know will kill or maim I don't see a reason why punishment shouldn't be the same as if you went out and hit someone with a hammer. In this case, force 3M to pay for everything, if they refuse or can't the government sells of the company to pay for the cost. I'm not a fan of the death sentence, but I have no problem killing of evil compan…

I read once about a corporate death penalty that I think should really be made into law: where a corporate entity commits something so heinous that a fine or what have you is simply not enough. I cannot find the link but the process would go about such as: - The entire entity would be taken on ownership by the government agency at play. No existing stakeholders would be paid anything for this and operations would con…

Sounds like a gift to short sellers.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#62

Post by gmac » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

xvector wrote: post #51

mrweasel wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death sentence is probably a bit much, but if management takes actions that they know will kill or maim I don't see a reason why punishment shouldn't be the same as if you went out and hit someone with a hammer. In this case, force 3M to pay for everything, if they refuse or can't the government sells of the company to pay for the cost. I'm not a fan of the death sentence, but I have no problem killing of evil compan…

Death sentence is absolutely not too much. It's an extraordinarily effective deterrent (see Singapore), and I don't know where the narrative comes from that it's not. Some people simply need to die.

Feels weird to get into a high-school debate about capital punishment here, but in essence:

(a) Sometimes the wrong people get convicted. In this context, irreversible punishments suck.

(b) “We’re going to kill you because killing people is wrong” is a weird look.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#63

Post by starttoaster » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

jabl wrote: post #42

starttoaster wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, it's about ensuring some kind of deterrence. Life in prison without the possibility for parole can be too soft when the crime is the intentional negligence leading to the deaths of thousands, if the punishment is life in a low security prison with access to TV/internet. If you have the connections to ensure you end up in a nice little apartment in Club Fed, you might not think as hard about the consequences a…

> I'm also somewhat skeptical on the idea that the death penalty _should_ cost more than life in prison (assuming that sentence carries at least 20 years for the remainder of that person's life.) It would seem to me that there is a fairly obvious problem there that needs to get worked out if it's actually true (has anyone looked closely at the studies that assert this claim? Obviously there's additional time in court…

> I'm not an expert on this, but my understanding it's all the extra judicial processes that end up costing a lot. The cost of the poison used to kill the person (or bullet, or however it's done) it's probably just a rounding error in comparison.

I would wager you're probably correct. One substantial cost for the death penalty seems to be just paying a public defender for that whole time because the average person on death row cannot afford their own representation. This would not be the case, however, for company executives in the context we're discussing here at least. I'm also curious if these studies accurately pull together all the costs for life imprisonment, such as the guard staff, infirmary staff, cost of food consumed, cost of clothing, etc. There are probably other costs associated with imprisonment that I'm not even aware of because I've been fortunate enough to avoid prison so far.

> ([...] why invent these macabre Rube Goldberg contraptions for killing people? Just put the person up against a wall and shoot him, FFS.)

On this, we agree. Frankly, I'm fine without the death penalty too, though I'm not certain that it's a fair and just punishment in every case, and I would assume the potential for capital punishment would be a major deterrence for people looking into committing "white collar" life-ending crimes.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#64

Post by IanCal » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:51 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #50

ponector wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of person? Regular millionaire/billionaire who know that they easily can get away with such decision using their wealth and/or power. Musk is totally ok to use materials mined by enslaved children of Madagascar. Or abuse his employees. Or fire people who try to organize a union. Or do plenty of other shady or illegal stuff. That kind of person.

Let me rephrase then: What is wrong in the brain of these people? They have to live on the planet too, they have friend and family, people they care... No? Normal people can't get away with things like this, because the decisions would haunt our dreams.

I'm not sure.

Regular people make, logically, truly horrifying decisions constantly.

I bought some wine for a friends get-together. That's pretty normal.

But in doing so, I chose to have wine rather than vaccinate some children.

I chose having a drink over the lives of deprived children. Am I not a monster?

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#65

Post by loganfrederick » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:53 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #50

ponector wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of person? Regular millionaire/billionaire who know that they easily can get away with such decision using their wealth and/or power. Musk is totally ok to use materials mined by enslaved children of Madagascar. Or abuse his employees. Or fire people who try to organize a union. Or do plenty of other shady or illegal stuff. That kind of person.

Let me rephrase then: What is wrong in the brain of these people? They have to live on the planet too, they have friend and family, people they care... No? Normal people can't get away with things like this, because the decisions would haunt our dreams.

I dove into the science of psychopathy a few years ago after a family incident where my father imploded his life and much of the family's through self-destructive activities and there is actually a bunch of smart people studying the neuroscience of pyschopaths.

Two great books to start with:

- The Science of Evil: https://www.amazon.com/Science-Evil-Empathy-Origins-Cruelty/...

- The Psychopath Whisperer: The Science of Those Without Conscious: https://www.amazon.com/Psychopath-Whisperer-Science-Without-...

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#66

Post by gosub100 » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:53 PM UTC

KennyBlanken wrote: post #49

gosub100 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need regulation of the regulations! /s

I get the joke, but what we need is a constitutional amendment overriding Citizens United, reigning in the absurdity of "corporations have free speech rights and thus they can spend whatever they want on political campaigns and PACs, and without even reporting it."

I agree wholeheartedly.

What if one or both political parties spoke out about campaign finance corruption? What if they refuses corporate donations, and made direct appeals to their voters to chip in (YouTuber style). I'm trying very hard to not be partisan here, but why doesn't either party take a stand? Don't they share responsibility for accepting the money?

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#67

Post by toomuchtodo » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:54 PM UTC

graphe wrote: post #34

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, there was a case of baby formula execs (Edit: pointed out to me further down thread that the execs were only jailed for 5-15 years with Sanlu's general manager receiving a life sentence, and the people executed very those directly responsible for tainting the product mentioned) knowingly selling product that was harmful and led to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and a handful of deaths. They were exec…

This is false. The executives were not harmed. Even the article you posted states that.

You’re correct and I’m mistaken. The execs were only jailed for 5-15 years, Sanlu's general manager received a life sentence, and the farmer and salesperson who were directly involved with the knowing adulteration of the product were executed. I’ll update my top comment accordingly.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes...

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#68

Post by 14 » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:55 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #31

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, there was a case of baby formula execs (Edit: pointed out to me further down thread that the execs were only jailed for 5-15 years with Sanlu's general manager receiving a life sentence, and the people executed very those directly responsible for tainting the product mentioned) knowingly selling product that was harmful and led to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and a handful of deaths. They were exec…

Death sentence is probably a bit much, but if management takes actions that they know will kill or maim I don't see a reason why punishment shouldn't be the same as if you went out and hit someone with a hammer. In this case, force 3M to pay for everything, if they refuse or can't the government sells of the company to pay for the cost. I'm not a fan of the death sentence, but I have no problem killing of evil compan…

I have to disagree if someone knowingly poisoned my baby then if death penalty isn’t imposed I’m going to attempt to get revenge myself. The death penalty was probably effective at calming the entire country from rage.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#69

Post by lupusreal » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:56 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #31

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, there was a case of baby formula execs (Edit: pointed out to me further down thread that the execs were only jailed for 5-15 years with Sanlu's general manager receiving a life sentence, and the people executed very those directly responsible for tainting the product mentioned) knowingly selling product that was harmful and led to tens of thousands of hospitalizations and a handful of deaths. They were exec…

Death sentence is probably a bit much, but if management takes actions that they know will kill or maim I don't see a reason why punishment shouldn't be the same as if you went out and hit someone with a hammer. In this case, force 3M to pay for everything, if they refuse or can't the government sells of the company to pay for the cost. I'm not a fan of the death sentence, but I have no problem killing of evil compan…

At least six babies were killed; that's mass murder. It was done in cold blood, planned out ahead of time. The death penalty was the only fitting sentence.

Re: 3M knew its chemicals were harmful decades ago, but didn't tell the public

#70

Post by thedragonline » Sun, Dec 17, 2023, 8:57 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #32

KyleBerezin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the exon-mobile report on global warming is one of the most accurate models for predicting global warming, and that was written before this was a big political issue. I think having companies produce the research to hang themself with in the future is unstable though.

That one always makes me sad – imagine how different our world would have been if, say, they’d gone to Carter and offered to go public with the data in exchange for help decarbonizing. He’d have gotten his French-style civilian nuclear power program, they’d probably have been able to successfully shift into emerging green industries with their enormous resources, and we wouldn’t have an expensively cultivated anti-sc…

I spent half a decade working with climate data from institutions around the world. There are dragons in those datasets and it is really frustrating to watch denialism at large and have to deal with it personally.