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California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

dmv.ca.gov

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Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#61

Post by mrandish »

noodlesUK wrote: post #4

I’m enthusiastic about the longer term future of solutions like this. Current IDs can’t do data minimization very easily, but phone-based solutions can. You should be able to get a permission prompt saying “drug store wants to know your >18/21 status” and not hand over any other data. Of course this requires regulatory oversight to ensure that the stores don’t just ask for all the perms available. However, does this…

> Of course this requires regulatory oversight

Unfortunately, history proves relying on regulatory oversight is likely to fail, be subverted or captured by special interests, possibly catastrophically, or worse, silently. This is especially true in rapidly evolving tech domains.

While I can understand that from a purely technical architecture design perspective standardization and centralization can seem like the correct approach, from a risk analysis perspective the downsides are simply too costly. It's really a case of being a reasonable choice "in a perfect world" but a terrible choice "in the real world."

The data and individual rights at stake are too important and too valuable to centralize into one juicy target certain to attract well-funded, highly motivated adversaries ranging from hostile governments, commercial interests and law enforcement overreach to some DMV clerk using a system design flaw to stalk women. None of those examples are theoretical since all of them (and worse) have already actually happened multiple times in different systems carefully designed with the best intentions and substantial legal, procedural and technical safeguards. Arguing "But this time the system won't fail" isn't persuasive when the risks are so high and track-record so clear. While I agree the current situation is far from optimal, we need to be incredibly cautious about jumping from the pan into the fire.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#62

Post by tlogan »

I received this, and it seems cool. However, there are some issues. First, it cannot be used as identification at airports, for rental cars, or in bars.

There is a kiosk at SFO, but every time I’ve visited, it was out of order.

Another annoyance is that it’s not integrated with Apple Wallet.

Knowing how the government in California operates, this will likely become a money pit. They will probably abandon the project, sue IDEMIA for breach of contract (or similar reasons), and then start over.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#63

Post by Tagbert »

phpisthebest wrote: post #14
tomohelix wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, people who are aware of this won't even use this thing anyway and many who are exploitable would be tricked into giving their phone to the police. I hate how police is legally allowed to lie and psychologically trick/pressure people into things they would not normally do. It makes me distrust and question everything they do and say, i.e. being uncooperative to them. Which they then can use as an excuse…

I would not have a problem with police legally lying, if it was legal for me to lie in response. The single biggest problem in modern society is a dual rules we have for government agents vs the population at large, this can not stand in a free society. We all either have the same rules or we have tyranny there is no 3rd option

You are not required to tell the truth to the police.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#64

Post by bri3d »

azinman2 wrote: post #36
bri3d wrote: post #30

The Estonian e-ID system and Qualified Electronic Signature in the EU are good ideas. The government issues you a signed identity. You can use that signed identity to counter-sign challenges in places you'd otherwise (in the US) need to use a Social Security Number and a convoluted private market identity-verification system (for example, the stupid "were you associated with this address 4.5 years ago" things). Like…

Now imagine they are under obligation to accept it, and you can get to the point where you can leave your wallet at home. With car keys being Bluetooth, I now don’t carry keys in my pocket. To not carry a wallet to drive to the grocery store either would be a joy. I like a physical lightness.

Yes, this idea would be interesting if acceptance were mandated, but I'm not aware of any movement in that direction in any state. Mandating this kind of system would be massively fraught with political and legal peril in the US and is likely impossible.

With the way the US works, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use these systems, and I haven't seen an implementation with this focus yet.

Bars would probably like to spend less resource teaching their bouncers and staff to read fake ID tea leaves, but they also can't afford a system that breaks, or is slow or expensive. On paper, these systems should allow for fast, reliable offline verification with a good scanning device. States could partner with someone to make cheap, reliable, phone/tablet-attached scanning devices available widely off the shelf, rather than running "private pilot programs" that fizzle out, or handwaving.

Since mDL is an ISO standard, maybe there's room for someone to make a cheap mDL reader system for bars and restaurants, even if state programs seem overly shortsighted in funding this kind of development.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#67

Post by intrasight »

bri3d wrote: post #64
azinman2 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine they are under obligation to accept it, and you can get to the point where you can leave your wallet at home. With car keys being Bluetooth, I now don’t carry keys in my pocket. To not carry a wallet to drive to the grocery store either would be a joy. I like a physical lightness.

Yes, this idea would be interesting if acceptance were mandated, but I'm not aware of any movement in that direction in any state. Mandating this kind of system would be massively fraught with political and legal peril in the US and is likely impossible. With the way the US works, there needs to be an incentive for businesses to use these systems, and I haven't seen an implementation with this focus yet. Bars would p…

> Mandating this kind of system

The US mandated the acceptance of fiat money. That too was controversial at first.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#68

Post by bigmattystyles »

Tagbert wrote: post #63
phpisthebest wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not have a problem with police legally lying, if it was legal for me to lie in response. The single biggest problem in modern society is a dual rules we have for government agents vs the population at large, this can not stand in a free society. We all either have the same rules or we have tyranny there is no 3rd option

You are not required to tell the truth to the police.

You can say nothing, but you cannot make a false statement

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#69

Post by phpisthebest »

Tagbert wrote: post #63
phpisthebest wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not have a problem with police legally lying, if it was legal for me to lie in response. The single biggest problem in modern society is a dual rules we have for government agents vs the population at large, this can not stand in a free society. We all either have the same rules or we have tyranny there is no 3rd option

You are not required to tell the truth to the police.

Well Lying to the FBI and other federal agents is direct violation of the law

Lying to general police while not direct violation of the law, can be (and has been) prosecuted under several laws such as obstruction of justice, also several states have statues making false or misleading statements to police or public officials during in official investigation. Then there are also laws that prohibiting lying in specific context like your name, address, and other details.

Re: California DMV Digital ID Pilot Program

#70

Post by macNchz »

akerl_ wrote: post #53
ezxs wrote: post #27

I got it when it was in limited beta. It's underwhelming. First problem is that it's another app on your phone instead of using the Wallet app. It's not clear why you wouldn't just use the Android/Apple app. The second problem is that even the SFO airport doesn't take them as legitimate IDs. For the folks who are worried about giving your phone to the cop - I guess I am not worried about it much. The cop has the righ…

If you hand the cop your unlocked phone, and they hop over from the ID app to other apps and find evidence they think implicates you in a crime, what happens? If you hand the cop your phone, and then say “hey I need that back to call my lawyer” and they say “Sorry, no, I need to keep this for processing”, what happens? There are cases every day where cops are just outright wrong about the law, your rights, or their o…

Yeah better hope you don't get a text message that gets the cops attention while he has your phone. Say... one that happens to contain one of the many hundreds of slang terms for drugs that the DEA maintains https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2018-07/DIR-022-18.p...
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