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Htmx Is a Erlang

matt.sh

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Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#61

Post by troupo »

c-cube wrote: post #56
troupo wrote: post #49

I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the memes and shit-slinging. Or past them superficially co-opting terms they have nothing to do with like Erlang, or hypermedia. It's a toy mascarading as a serious tool.

It's related to hypermedia though? The whole point is to go back to servers returning hypermedia (ie html) instead of json. How is that not related?

> is to go back to servers returning hypermedia (ie html)

This has nothing to do with hypermedia. You can return json, xml, pdf, or binary and be 100% hypermedia-driven.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#62

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #57
troupo wrote: post #49

I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the memes and shit-slinging. Or past them superficially co-opting terms they have nothing to do with like Erlang, or hypermedia. It's a toy mascarading as a serious tool.

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#63

Post by snowstormsun »

andrewflnr wrote: post #44
snowstormsun wrote: post #22

> ah yes, the famous XSS coming from your own backend API calls… Author does not seem to understand the concept of XSS. Of course your own API could return user-provided data to trigger XSS attacks. Entering alert(1); in a messenger to see whether its rendered value is escaped correctly is a famous example.

Hence the mentioned hx-disable. Presumably you wrap any user content with that, right?

Maybe I missed that

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#64

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #62
recursivedoubts wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.

what do you mean?

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#65

Post by atraac »

felixgallo wrote: post #7
coolhand2120 wrote: post #5

Reading that entire thing was a struggle. Really feels like _everyone_ is wrong here. Yes the current state of FE development is overly dogmatic and cultish. But it always has been. On the other hand the frameworks and build systems are solving actual problems, they're not there for looks. 5-7 second skeleton loaders are there because backend systems are slow, not because of the front end application. You can say "oh…

there is no way any competently written back end system takes 5-7 seconds for any reason whatsoever. A middling back end system with median complexity is doing 10-100K requests per second per server and is near-perfectly horizontally scalable.

1. Most software is NOT competently written - just look how bad your average, day to day software runs.

2. Salesforce, JIRA, Microsoft Teams, Reddit, even Gmail recently takes up to a minute to get content and be responsive, just to name a few.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#66

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #64
troupo wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. I skimmed through that. It has nothing to do with hypermedia.

what do you mean?

Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia.

Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#67

Post by WeAddValue »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #57
troupo wrote: post #49

I find all the marketing, advertising intentional or not, around HTMX really obnoxious. Does it have its merits? Maybe? I don't know, I can never get past the memes and shit-slinging. Or past them superficially co-opting terms they have nothing to do with like Erlang, or hypermedia. It's a toy mascarading as a serious tool.

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

As a counter-example, how many have heard of unpoly.com, another hypermedia-based framework but without the memes and shit-slinging?

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#68

Post by recursivedoubts »

troupo wrote: post #66
recursivedoubts wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you mean?

Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia. Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.

Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls":

> A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself.

I think that's a pretty clear definition. Maybe you disagree w/ it, but it's at least defensible, no?

As far as what it has to do w/ htmx, htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia, making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general. (This is in contrast w/ something like React, which typically uses a fixed-format non-hypermedia data API to communicate w/ the server.)

I understand you don't like the somewhat crazy social media presence of htmx, but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#69

Post by recursivedoubts »

WeAddValue wrote: post #67
recursivedoubts wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you want to just have a serious look at htmx, I recommend the book, which is free online: https://hypermedia.systems i am willing to admit that i get a little wild on the ol' twitters and understand if that isn't everyone's cup of tea (otoh, you probably wouldn't have heard of htmx if i went at things the normal way: i'm a solo dev in montana.)

As a counter-example, how many have heard of unpoly.com, another hypermedia-based framework but without the memes and shit-slinging?

Well, i had a pretty good A/B test w/ intercooler and then htmx (intercooler 2.0):

https://star-history.com/embed#bigskysoftware/htmx&bigskysof...

at the end of the day, i enjoy memes and shoot-posting and, as they say, to thine own self be true.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#70

Post by troupo »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #68
troupo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is more serious, and a proper introduction to HTMX. But as I said, they co-opt terms that have nothing to do with HTMX like hypermedia. Just because you use get/post and return HTML does not make you hypermedia, or "extend HTML with hypermedia" whatever that means.

Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works. My definition of hypermedia is "a media that contains hypermedia controls ": > A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction, often with a remote server, by encoding information about that interaction directly and completely within itself. I think that's a pretty clear definition.…

> Chapters 1 and 2 focus on what hypermedia is and how a hypermedia system works.

Yes, they do. And they turn around, slap an "Extending HTML As Hypermedia" on it as if that sentence made any sense, and then keep on pretending what they do has anything to do with hypermedia.

> A hypermedia control is an element in a hypermedia that describes (or controls) some sort of interaction

> I think that's a pretty clear definition.

It's a string of words that make zero to no sense. What is an "element in a hypermedia"?

> htmx extends HTML as a hypermedia

This sentence also makes no sense

> making the set of hypermedia exchanges it can perform larger and more general.

Neither is true. HTMX limits all exchanges to HTML, and HTML only, and then clearly separates whatever HTML it accepts and "JSON Data APIs" into two separate entites. Doesn't make them hypermedia.

> but the philosophy underneath it is fairly well developed and, as far as I can tell, at least plausibly related to hypermedia.

But it's not. It's slapped on with al the confidence of a teenager who discovered a new word and now uses it everywhere.

Hypermedia isn't "we do REST requests and get HTML back" or "we separated HTML and JSON into two separate APIs, these are now hypermedia elements in hypermedia as we've extended HTML as hypermedia".

Just because you repeat something a hundred times, doesn't make it so.

They even mention HATEOAS a few times as if it had something to do with HTMX and literally throw it out of the window.

Edit:

They even completely misrepresented Roy Fielding's REST paper by pretending it only applies to HTML and claiming this somehow reflects the original idea behind the dissertation

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