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Europe needs to escape providerism

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Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#61

Post by atoav »

Racing0461 wrote: post #22
woodruffw wrote: post #2

For some definitions of wealth, surely. By most quality of life metrics, the average (Western) European is doing as well or better than the average American.

> most quality of life metrics This is what we refer to as "europoor". Sure they have taxpayer funded "healthcare", council "housing", public "transportation" but it's not really what i would want for myself. Those things only exist because the middle class in europe is foced to give up a lifestyle of freedom/autonomy to average it out so the folks below them can get (1 + 0)/2. It won't stand on its own otherwise. Th…

So you'd rather live in a villa next to a slum than in a decent house next to a decent house?

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#62

Post by askonomm »

missedthecue wrote: post #49
askonomm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well firstly there's about 2x more Europeans than Americans by population, and secondly 44% of Americans don't even own a passport.

Only 41% of Germans have a passport. I don't see your point. We can adjust for population and the data is still clear. EU citizens would rather be in the US than the other way around. And the EU is only about 30% larger not 100%.

So now you are suddenly talking about the EU? I thought we were talking about Europe. Europe is not the same as European Union, and Europe is in fact more than double the population of U.S. Germany, being one of the most backwards countries in the entire Europe, is not a good representation of every European country.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#63

Post by bequanna »

missedthecue wrote: post #36
bequanna wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite some specifics? I’ve travelled to quite a few places in Europe and coming from the American Midwest, we are beating much of Europe in most/all QoL metrics by a mile. Much larger and nicer homes, larger properties, mincer automobiles, more variety of all consumer goods, higher incomes, more wealth and social mobility to name a few and I live in “flyover” country.

Based on conversations I've had, it seems most Americans who think that way took a vacation to a ritzy area of Barcelona, Nice, or Florence, and and deduced that 100% of Europeans, must live like that.

That could be.

Very interested to hear specific ways the Europeans are beating us and where exactly they are hiding all that prosperity!

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#64

Post by elteto »

This one is sure to elicit strong opinions here on HN.

People quickly jump to point out how the average quality of life in Europe is so much higher than in the US. And rightly so, that's not even up for debate.

But why does having high quality of life have to be orthogonal to having a strong tech market? I think the more interesting question is could Europe maintain their standards _and_ also have a strong tech industry that could compete with the US?

If turns out that you can't have one without the other... then that would be a very interesting and somewhat scary answer. If you could only optimize for one or the other which one should we go for?

I'm very interested in this because I think it's easier for the US to catch up on some social advances than it is for Europe to have its own Silicon Valley. And therefore would love to see the US actually (ha! one can dream) do so.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#65

Post by t8sr »

This article makes me sad, because:

1) It's completely true that the EU's economic outlook is dire.

2) Most Europeans (I am one) do not want to hear it, will not discuss it and will flag this article to avoid having to think about it.

To an outsider it might be surprising that this isn't on the political agenda at all. People complain about the gradual deterioration of the economy, but the causes are only discussed at the 6th grade level. (Half the population blames everything on immigration and the other half wants to retire at age 55 and ban this computer nonsense.)

Obviously our living standards are only made possible by the fact that our, historically, strong economy has made it possible to import phones and computers from China, produce from South America, tech from the US. But the average European (especially in the West) assumes they are owed these things, and never think about why our purchasing power should be higher than, say, India's. (Or, indeed, why it's dropping compared to the US.)

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#66

Post by earthnail »

I like the article, but I think the consequences that the author suggests lack insight into what’s really holding European entrepreneurs back.

IMO it’s all about simplifying regulation. Simplify tax. Simplify bookkeeping. Simplify hiring and firing.

I’ve lived in various European countries and I always get the impression so much energy is spent on solving every edge case with yet another rule, trying to make the world perfectly fair. It arranges the status quo better but prevents a lot of future change.

Generally speaking, I firmly agree with the analysis of the author. As far as modern tech like computers go, the “providerism” description is spot on.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#67

Post by lordnacho »

hansvm wrote: post #59
lordnacho wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure this means anything. Almost every European country has a huge number of English speakers. Few Americans speak one of the local languages of Europe well enough to live there. Plus, we'd have to assume people were well informed in general about living conditions in various places.

Anecdotally, not a single American I've talked to who was on the fence about moving to Europe was deterred by not knowing the native language well enough. Whether overly optimistic or not, the prospect of spending a few months learning well enough to barely get by and spending more time later to become more adept never amounted to even a footnote in the deciding factors.

Sure, they convince themselves that everyone speaks English, which is generally true in the kinds of places that hire expats.

But plenty of them find it hard to fit in socially, and then leave later.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#68

Post by [deleted] »

probablynish wrote: post #29

It's tempting to read just the headline and see an opportunity to express your views on the great Europe vs US online debate (everyone has a take), but the article does have an interesting thesis. > If you wanted to regulate AI, I think you’d want to regulate somewhere at the production level, not at the consumption level. Why is it that the EU regulators are focusing entirely on the consumption level? > Well, becaus…

[deleted]

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#69

Post by loeber »

t8sr wrote: post #65

This article makes me sad, because: 1) It's completely true that the EU's economic outlook is dire . 2) Most Europeans (I am one) do not want to hear it, will not discuss it and will flag this article to avoid having to think about it. To an outsider it might be surprising that this isn't on the political agenda at all. People complain about the gradual deterioration of the economy, but the causes are only discussed…

Author here. Glad it resonated with you :)

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#70

Post by [deleted] »

elteto wrote: post #64

This one is sure to elicit strong opinions here on HN. People quickly jump to point out how the average quality of life in Europe is so much higher than in the US. And rightly so, that's not even up for debate. But why does having high quality of life have to be orthogonal to having a strong tech market? I think the more interesting question is could Europe maintain their standards _and_ also have a strong tech indus…

[deleted]
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