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BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

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Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#61

Post by pjmlp »

vkazanov wrote: post #60
pjmlp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During university days, had NT really properly supported POSIX, I probably would never bothered with that "Linux Unleashed with Slackware 2.0 CD-ROM" book. If Microsoft could tell the future, they would have improved POSIX, instead of killing it, and then briging a Linux VM into the OS.

Microsoft did everything, like everything and more, to kill every alternative platform on the planet. Hedging their bets with half-hearted posix support was part of that effort. If not for that MSN vs Internet fiasco, they would succeed.

I never liked that point of view, because while it is true they did their part, the OEMs and consumers also did theirs.

Also as seen nowadays by many FAANG efforts, "do no evil" marketing stunts, Playstation and Nintendo with their exclusive deals, they are not alone in the desire to achieve that goal.

Ironically, while UNIX won the server room, the Linux wars replacing the UNIX wars, is kind of what killed the desktop for most consumers, now enjoying the Linux kernel via Android, ChromeOS, and the free beer version of them, versus what OEMs make available isn't the same anyway.

Or one pays what is seen as the Apple tax in countries where wages aren't at the same level as North America.

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#62

Post by rollcat »

sydbarrett74 wrote: post #56
RachelF wrote: post #41

Windows NT 3.x and 4 were Posix complaint. In the mid-1990's there were a few vendors that sold products that let you run full X11 apps on NT. Microsoft bought and extinguished the largest one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interix

I guess WSL/WSL2 is Microsoft's mea culpa . :D

Notice how Windows, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and (removed in 6.0) OpenBSD all have Linux emulation/compat layers. This is in fact incredibly sad, for multiple reasons:

- This is what POSIX was meant to address; there aren't all that many Linux-specific APIs that ordinary applications actually need. Proof: browse the ports/packages on any BSD; all the apps (with extremely few notable omissions) are there and working fine.

- Vocal FOSS enthusiasts are ready, every day of the week, to preach to you about open standards; you must use Jitsi and not Zoom, Matrix and not WhatsApp, heck I've been told to play Mindustry instead of Factorio. I don't know if these are the same people who write "#ifdef linux" in their code, but I've sent out enough one-line patches to fix the build on OpenBSD to wonder.

- The Linux userland is one hell of a horror, in terms of being a viable target for others to aim at; try running literally any precompiled binary on Alpine or Void(musl) to get a feel. The glibc seems to be introducing new versioned symbols and other backward incompatible changes every release - just for the sake of it; and many open source libraries resist static linking with every inch of their autohell existence. (I've tried making a static build of Love2d for Linux, and it was an exercise in futility.)

Yeah guys, unless you're writing a container runtime, please stop targeting Linux. You don't need to strictly adhere to POSIX, just please at least try to compile your program in a VM with any BSD; it will flush out 99% of the non-portable stuff.

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#64

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

Teever wrote: post #58
SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume his tendency to say things that upset a particularly sensitive political milieu, but I can't say that's what they meant for certain.

Is that really how you interpreted my comment? My critique of Notch is that he doesn't do cool stuff anymore. Stuff like that weird space game that he was talking about making, or something like BSD on windows.

Ah OK. I guess I interpreted it differently because I don't follow him as a person. So my exposure to him is usually people complaining about something he said, or someone saying what he said was based. I know very little of his projects after Minecraft, so I just used the info I have.

I dunno why you'd be sore about it, the guy already paid his dues? Again though, bot familiar eith what he goes around promising.

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#65

Post by anthk »

ianai wrote: post #35
frutiger wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but from a user perspective? It says you could run vi/gcc/etc. in BoW, which you can easily do. I don't know why GGP would want to spend millions (surely would cost way more than millions) nor billions recreating something that already exists?

Really, to do something different and that might move the needle to new possibilities. The *BSDs and Linux seem like they permanently miss just a few core elements to be mass adoptable. Mass adoption would benefit everyone through things like competition but also just different features. Like imagine being able to zfs send incremental backups of your daily drivers and gaming boxes. Or if plan9 had really taken off an…

You are using plan9's UTF8 and 9p in lots of products.

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#67

Post by taspeotis »

speps wrote: post #59
RachelF wrote: post #41

Windows NT 3.x and 4 were Posix complaint. In the mid-1990's there were a few vendors that sold products that let you run full X11 apps on NT. Microsoft bought and extinguished the largest one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interix

Just playing devil's advocate here but Interix according to the Wikipedia was supported by Microsoft until Windows 7 (1999 to 2010). I wouldn't call that "bought and extinguished".

> supported by Microsoft until Windows 7 (1999 to 2010)

The 2022 Extended Security Updates for Windows 7 were maintained until 2023:

> Windows 7 Extended Security Updates 2022: January 12, 2022 - January 10, 2023

[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-clien...

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#68

Post by dtech »

taspeotis wrote: post #67
speps wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just playing devil's advocate here but Interix according to the Wikipedia was supported by Microsoft until Windows 7 (1999 to 2010). I wouldn't call that "bought and extinguished".

> supported by Microsoft until Windows 7 (1999 to 2010) The 2022 Extended Security Updates for Windows 7 were maintained until 2023: > Windows 7 Extended Security Updates 2022: January 12, 2022 - January 10, 2023 [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-clien...

If something was bought in 1999, and updated and released for more than a decade, "bought and extinguished" is incredibly misleading.

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#69

Post by taspeotis »

dtech wrote: post #68
taspeotis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> supported by Microsoft until Windows 7 (1999 to 2010) The 2022 Extended Security Updates for Windows 7 were maintained until 2023: > Windows 7 Extended Security Updates 2022: January 12, 2022 - January 10, 2023 [1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-clien...

If something was bought in 1999, and updated and released for more than a decade, "bought and extinguished" is incredibly misleading.

No argument there? I am pointing out Windows 7 got an extra 13 years of support after 2010.

Re: BSD on Windows: Things I wish I knew existed

#70

Post by RachelF »

speps wrote: post #59
RachelF wrote: post #41

Windows NT 3.x and 4 were Posix complaint. In the mid-1990's there were a few vendors that sold products that let you run full X11 apps on NT. Microsoft bought and extinguished the largest one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interix

Just playing devil's advocate here but Interix according to the Wikipedia was supported by Microsoft until Windows 7 (1999 to 2010). I wouldn't call that "bought and extinguished".

True, I was being glib, but the devil's in the details here - unfortunately, it was very hard to use after Microsoft bought it. It became unreliable, and the licensing was hard to understand for customers who wanted to use it.
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