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PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

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Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#61

Post by wtallis »

TillE wrote: post #31

Aside from bugs and driver issues, Wayland has some unfortunate design limitations. For example, Dear ImGui multi-viewports don't work because "Wayland doesn't let application read or write windows positions." https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/wiki/Multi-Viewports This is a feature available on Windows, macOS, and of course X11. Making choices like this means desktop Linux becomes even more of a weird island that nobo…

Why can't ImGui applications do multiple windows while leaving the positioning up to somebody else (the user or their window manager)?

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#62

Post by LtWorf »

k8svet wrote: post #58
imiric wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 today works better for more users than Wayland. No user will want to switch to something that provides a worse experience. Until these issues are ironed out, it's delusional to think that making Wayland the default will make users happy. Keep it as an experimental feature, and once it provides an objectively better experience for everyone, make it the default. These technical discussions by folks in the trenches…

Sure, X11 "better", as long as you don't have high or mixed DPI screens, appreciate variable refresh rates, arbitrary scale factors, don't mind inconsistent tearing, aren't bothered by using a openly unmaintained, abandoned critical piece of desktop infra, etc. Otoh, if you're willing to buy a GPU from a vendor that doesn't snub Linux, or maybe god forbid change screenshot programs (doubt you even need to nowadays),…

I have never seen tearing on Xorg.

I know in theory it might happen… but it's a non-issue since it doesn't happen.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#63

Post by v1ne »

This discussion about monitor-aware positioning of windows relative to another is a real treasure trove: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/m...

One post summarizes it pretty well. Jehan says: > As GIMP maintainer, do you want me to open a separate report so that we explain our use case on multiple windows, as well as future planned use cases?

I find it fascinating. There is this supposed successor to X11, but it breaks a lot of existing applications, telling them that they are wrong. Because layout shall be done by the compositor, not by the application. True, traditional desktop systems make a lot of invalid assumptions like Windows with a global physical pixel grid that makes it pretty tough to display windows which span multiple monitors with different DPIs correctly. Yet still, they get one thing right: Positioning is a job shared between the application and window system. Because only the application knows the semantics in detail. Completely ignoring that and insisting on the application to only express these semantics via a previously-agreed upon protocol sounds pretty arrogant to me. This means that details will be lost. It's not up to the protocol designers to decide which semantic details are important. That's up to the application designer.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#64

Post by dinosaurdynasty »

evanjrowley wrote: post #53

Due to the headline, it has dawned on me just now that the Steam Deck uses X11. Been using PCSX2 successfully on it for several months now. I never thought about whether it was using Wayland or X11 until reading this.

Steam Deck uses Wayland. It uses Xwayland to run X11 applications.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#65

Post by Zambyte »

jdlyga wrote: post #7

Are we subjecting ourselves to the sunk cost fallacy with Wayland? It's been "almost ready" for 6 or 7 years at this point.

I think it's more interesting how Wayland has worked fine for me on AMD, Intel, and Nvidia for the last 4 years on my personal machines and work machines, and yet here we are still talking about if it works or not.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#66

Post by abrouwers »

Gigachad wrote: post #25
askonomm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ready ready on what? Select hardware? I've thrown 4 regular off the shelf laptops at various DE's using Wayland and they all suck in various ways to the point that they're not even usable. Meanwhile I can throw Windows on all of them, and they work flawlessly. I'm quite tired of Linux guys saying their stuff works just fine, without mentioning how extremely limited is the hardware support to actually run any of those…

It's ready for me in that it works better than X11 on my hardware. No it's not flawless like MacOS and to some extent Windows, but it's certainly an improvement over what we had.

I mean, of course that's the case? xorg.conf* applies to X (the process) which isn't running any longer. Also, most people haven't need d a xorg config in a long while, except for unique cases.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#67

Post by saghm »

LtWorf wrote: post #48
Gigachad wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ready for me in that it works better than X11 on my hardware. No it's not flawless like MacOS and to some extent Windows, but it's certainly an improvement over what we had.

Works flawlessly if you've never edited a Xorg config file… if you did, there is no way to keep using the same configuration

Not ever having to touch Xorg config files to get things working is pretty big advantage to me at least.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#68

Post by jxdxbx »

idle_zealot wrote: post #35
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux in general... Think of the efforts wasted in duplicate/overlapping functionality between maintenance + development of distributions, package managers, shells, compilers, C libraries, desktop environments, etc.

Unfortunately that's not avoidable. The duplication exists because of disagreement regarding how things should be done. The alternative is not "my preferred project gets all the resources" but "my preferred project doesn't exist and all the resources go to some fundamentally flawed project that I don't want to use". See Windows or macOS for how that turns out.

Windows and macOS are both more popular and usable than desktop Linux so I think it turns out fine.

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#69

Post by abrouwers »

askonomm wrote: post #18
Gigachad wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been ready ready for a long time now. It's been on by default in Fedora for a long time now and I've not experienced issues. Or at least fewer issues than with X11.

Ready ready on what? Select hardware? I've thrown 4 regular off the shelf laptops at various DE's using Wayland and they all suck in various ways to the point that they're not even usable. Meanwhile I can throw Windows on all of them, and they work flawlessly. I'm quite tired of Linux guys saying their stuff works just fine, without mentioning how extremely limited is the hardware support to actually run any of those…

Curious, what sort of hardware issues? I don't have experience with Nvidia, but on Intel, my experience is equal on gnome (in fact, quite improved for the last couple of years - more fluid animations, less lag, etc). I've had this experience on thinkpads and most recently a framework laptop (though, vendor hardly makes a difference in this case).

Re: PCSX2 Disables Wayland Support

#70

Post by lupusreal »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #40
idle_zealot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that's not avoidable. The duplication exists because of disagreement regarding how things should be done. The alternative is not "my preferred project gets all the resources" but "my preferred project doesn't exist and all the resources go to some fundamentally flawed project that I don't want to use". See Windows or macOS for how that turns out.

> The duplication exists because of disagreement regarding how things should be done. Is there too high a level of this disagreement in open-source software? Should it be called out from the perspective of "please try to use your time more effectively instead of contributing to fragmentation because it's harmful to the ecosystem from a macro perspective"?

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