Earlier quoted context omitted.
Happens frequently in CAISO midday during shoulder months ( https://www.caiso.com/PriceMap/Pages/default.aspx ). Renewable generation produces a lot (sunny, decent wind) and electricity usage is so low, that supply exceeds demand. Electricity has to go somewhere to keep the grid balanced, so the utilities will wholesale electricity at negative rates.
Isn't it very easy to "dump" electricity? Why even sell it?
Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
61–70 of 122 posts
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
The traders have no place to store it. No method to retain, unless you pay rent, which puts pressure on your trade.
So why are they bitching about this or is it simply like a niche interest piece? Like why should anybody care about this?
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#63Unless you have a strong familiarity with ISO/FTR markets this article will be pretty opaque. The short version is that electricity delivery forecast is managed by a financial optimization process. Market participants (generators, line owners, and consumers) basically buy and sell their electricity in advance. Sometimes as far ahead as 2 years, all the way up to the day before (at which time the real time market take…
Without trying to fall too hard into a potential late-stage-capitalism hole, what is the advantages on trading like this? Beyond the advantages of making money on futures. I guess the buy/sell in advance lets generators etc fund projects ahead of time (maint, expansion, etc) instead of always living hand to mouth on "real time sold" and without having to land "huge multi-year contracts", so the market can be a bit mo…
Also note that though these markets are "free" they are still extremely highly regulated. I don't know much about the Finnish market but I've built trading algorithms for CAISO and PJM, and it is by no means a free-for-all. The rules about what types of entities can participate in which aspects of the market are quite strict and detailed.
Especially post-ENRON there is a strong focus on avoiding even any possibility of appearance of market manipulation. Basically the guidance from our lawyers was: every trade needs to have a strong, explicable economic rationale (apart from the market.) In our case we didn't even want to use neural-network based trading algorithms, since they (at the time) weren't sufficiently explicable for us to have a "rationale" for a trade that might later be called into question.
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#64Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
The market price is based off the cost of the marginal MW for some of these auctions. They tried selling power, but someone accidentally said they'd sell for a very large negative euro per MW hour amount and that set the price for the entire market and obligated them to pay the market to sell power. This is pretty rare, but not unheard of.
Can't officials just place a bid to buy power at whatever price(negative?) to even out the extra power that is not there?
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, electricity consumption in Finland will very likely spike tomorrow. People with a certain type of contract for their electricity will actually earn money for using a lot of electricity. Don't know what the implications for the network are, but I don't think such unnatural spikes in consumption are good for it.
No, you still have to pay for transfer.
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#67Unless you have a strong familiarity with ISO/FTR markets this article will be pretty opaque. The short version is that electricity delivery forecast is managed by a financial optimization process. Market participants (generators, line owners, and consumers) basically buy and sell their electricity in advance. Sometimes as far ahead as 2 years, all the way up to the day before (at which time the real time market take…
Without trying to fall too hard into a potential late-stage-capitalism hole, what is the advantages on trading like this? Beyond the advantages of making money on futures. I guess the buy/sell in advance lets generators etc fund projects ahead of time (maint, expansion, etc) instead of always living hand to mouth on "real time sold" and without having to land "huge multi-year contracts", so the market can be a bit mo…
Trying to view things as “late stage capitalism” isn’t a good way to really understand anything. It’s a cynical Reddit trope that assumes malice from the start, which doesn’t leave much room for a real explanation.
The reality is that trading like this is a type of contract and it takes two parties to enter into the contract voluntarily. Nobody is forced to trade energy contracts this way, but it can be helpful for both parties to do things like lock in more predictable pricing, hedge certain types of risks, and agree to mutual contracts that benefit both parties’ businesses.
Energy prices going negative sounds like something evil or malicious or “late stage capitalism” to the uninitiated, but even without trading errors there are legitimate reasons to have negative energy prices at certain times of day. For example, certain types of power plants like nuclear can’t quickly ramp up or down as demand changes. A power company might come out ahead by pricing power negative (that is, paying people to consume it) for certain night time hours if it allows them to keep the power plant at a higher, continuous output in preparation for peak times. Energy hungry industries such as aluminum manufacturing or other industrial processes might gladly adjust their production schedules to operate during these times to take advantage of the low or negative pricing. Everybody wins.
There are numerous dynamics like this at play. It’s not a “late stage capitalism” thing, despite how some people like to sneer at anything they don’t understand. There are legitimate reasons to operate this as a market and let market participants work out optimal deals.
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#68It's only -€0.2/kWh, not that bad at all. I've been seeing spot price predicted to be -A$1/kWh in several states in Australia (which is the lowest possible bid allowed by regulation). Even in Europe, I recall seeing some post desperately trying to figure out how to curtail their solar export because the price was reaching -€0.34/kWh. Not sure an error of -€0.2/kWh is anything newsworthy TBH.
> -A$1/kWh in several states in Australia (which is the lowest possible bid allowed by regulation) It's telling they regulate the price and won't allow it to go "too low", just like they halt trading on the stock exchange if things go down too much. Free market my backside - can't let those profits dip!
Now they stop trading for (15?) minutes to let everyone make sure it's real and not their trading algorithms being stupid.
It's not about not letting the stocks crash to far, it's about making sure the pricing is accurate.
The Federal Reserve however is a different story. :)
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> -A$1/kWh in several states in Australia (which is the lowest possible bid allowed by regulation) It's telling they regulate the price and won't allow it to go "too low", just like they halt trading on the stock exchange if things go down too much. Free market my backside - can't let those profits dip!
On the stock exchanges in the USA, they do that because we didn't use to and trading bots that were mis-configured went nuts and broke the markets for a while. Now they stop trading for (15?) minutes to let everyone make sure it's real and not their trading algorithms being stupid. It's not about not letting the stocks crash to far, it's about making sure the pricing is accurate. The Federal Reserve however is a diff…
If that were true, they would do the same thing if it was going up "too quickly".
To the surprise of nobody, they don't.
Re: Bidding error sees Finnish day-ahead power price tumble
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can't officials just place a bid to buy power at whatever price(negative?) to even out the extra power that is not there?
Sometimes it's a mistake, sometimes there really is a pile of power that has been contracted for, and is coming, and enough sinks that needed power which don't need any more power. There are power storage plants here and there - hydroelectric aside from small batteries. No doubt if one were on the path to this it might sink some of this power but they might be full or the grid in between the two spots might be full o…