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Don't Run into the Woods

onwriting.games

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Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#61

Post by justinator »

ncr100 wrote: post #56
justinator wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The style is getting in the way of the message. Did I finish the blog post? I did not. Will I read more from this author? Chances are very low. Sometimes style is the message. I don't think this is a good example of that, as the author is trying communicate unrelated concepts. A better way to do that is, "clearly". What the writing reminds me of is myself, when I was nineteen, in art school. That is not an associatio…

I agree to an extent. I agree that for you style is getting in the way of the message. I don't agree that it's clear from the writing that the author is desperate, or wants to impress you. Instead I speculate that the author does not care what > you I mean that's the only kind of conclusion I can come up with reading the article because it is clearly non-strunk & white english. So that leads me to think okay this is…

I don't believe the author is writing for himself, or why would they put it on a blog, then ask people to subscribe to a newsletter?

Making an outline is great. But I'm not going to make someone read my notes on something I want to actually write, nor publish my shitty first draft and then have all of us treat it like some exceptional creative product.

This whole, "I'm beyond all that" is kinda navel gazing, narcissistic. If that's what you mean by "writing for oneself" than I guess I agree. I'm not actually convinced this person knows the fundamentals of clear communication or writing.

If what you want to do is teach, teach. If what you want to do is perform, perform.

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#62

Post by LegibleCrimson »

ncr100 wrote: post #54
jvanderbot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow that's harsh. Totally true. I downregulated the feedback to be a little more kind. My experience living in LA may have colored my response. To address the meat of your response > it to me reads as a tool to help ... I don't see why this even qualifies as tool. There's no summary, not flow of logic, no conclusion really, just some thing a former mentor used to call a "walk through the garden of thought". Sure, t…

Thank you for the frank sharing of where you are coming from and clarifying so richly your thinking, it's really valuable to me. It shows me again how we all are different and soothes me to a degree, reducing my expectations of myself around strangers. I agree with you, given that context. This article is not an effective brief nugget on emotional introspection for videogame writers. I see it intended to be something…

> throwing their systematized note cards up in the air due to the article being unoptimized for Google's search engine

In my opinion, it's more criticism of the article for not communicating clearly to the reader. I don't care about Google SEO, but I do care about being able to understand the purpose of what I'm reading.

> this mob of judgment jumping down the throat of the author.

I do take issue with this. We are not our work. If we create something that has flaws, it should not be rude or uncouth to address those, nor should it be considered a personal attack on the author. Otherwise, why wouldn't the same apply to the critique itself? Wouldn't it be similarly wrong to jump down the throat of somebody who criticizes the work, as much of this thread boils down to?

Writing is not sacred, and we are not what we write. If we take critique personally, then we are setting ourselves up for defensiveness and an inability to grow or develop.

That said, it's clear that many people like the presentation. The fact that this article isn't for everybody is not a bad thing. Not everything needs to be for everybody, and somebody who points out why it doesn't work for them can be right, while at the same time, those aspects aren't a problem for other readers.

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#63

Post by LegibleCrimson »

frantufro wrote: post #53
kwertyoowiyop wrote: post #2

there’s something about this writing style that really annoys me and detracts from the message. if you’re going to ignore the rules the payoff needs to be worth it otherwise you’re just being… self-indulgent?

Thanks for the feedback, we’re all learning in this world. I’ll try to do better in the coming emails. Cheers!

The style doesn't work for me, but if you have an audience that likes the style, I'd encourage you to either stick with it or at least (somehow) ask that existing audience what they think about any change.

Even the subject of your post is narrative-driven games, which already also aren't for everybody.

When you're making something special specifically for the people who like that special kind of thing, deviating from that to be more accessible, or achieve a greater audience, or even to be more "effective" can be a path to diluting what you're doing, and spoiling what is special about it.

The criticism and feedback are correct; they are things that kept the words from really working for that reader. They also prevented the post from really working for me. I don't believe, however, that I need to be the audience. If you are doing something different from everybody else, in a unique style, it feels to me that it would be a little sad for that uniqueness to go away, even if I'm not a part of it. Like a species of a bird that I have never seen and never will see going extinct is still a sad thing.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this. I guess I'm just saying that criticism can be right, correct, and valid, and the right thing to do can still sometimes be to not take the advice, even when it's factually correct.

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#65

Post by frantufro »

RugnirViking wrote: post #19

There is a fun to be had with games divorced almost entirely from any storytelling though. For example various abstract strategy games I play like rule the waves, or games like rocket league. The fun there is not largely enhanced by the fantasy of it, I think. The mechanics themselves are the challenge, and overcoming them and creating things using them is the fun, something that is more abstract with books (you'd ha…

You are absolutely right, and also understood that my goal is to help writers create interactive stories.

Of course games are way more than that, and storytelling is not limited to full stories.

World building, character design and even the “metaphors” we use in game mechanics ARE types of storytelling and benefit from narrative design.

Thanks for pointing this out, it might be helpful for other people that are not necessarily writers trying to create interactive stories.

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#66

Post by [deleted] »

LegibleCrimson wrote: post #39
falcolas wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love stories, and I love games which tell good stories. More specifically, I prefer good stories over gameplay. Most games which focus only on deep gameplay mechanics rarely stick to me. I'll play them until I'm competent, and then I lose interest without something else to keep me attached to them. Honestly, if you took my favorite games and stripped them of their stories, they would be mediocre games at best. Yet…

My conclusion is that different people take different things from games, so the idea of making a "perfect" game or even an "ideal" game is nonsense. It's the same premise as "There's no such thing as an average pilot"[0]. So, how do you make a game that's just "good"? Not "good for some players", but just "good"? Logically, the only way to do this is to make the game customizable and configurable, so that every playe…

[deleted]

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#67

Post by Perz1val »

rileymat2 wrote: post #24
Perz1val wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often read texts (blogs, articles, long comments, etc) out of order, skipping whole paragraphs, coming back if I feel like I missed a detail. Just going fast. This post is entirely incompatible with that. Not only that, the combination of thin, serif, monospace font on a white background is distracting, but also like 1/4th of the text is bolded, further messing up how I think what is important. Like it is trying to…

> coming back if I feel like I missed a detail How do you know you are not missing a ton of important meaning? I feel like I know people that do this and are clearly missing major points by substituting their on beliefs in.

I don't, but getting even as little as 80% of 2 articles in the time required to read one is a 60% gain.

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#68

Post by jvanderbot »

ncr100 wrote: post #54
jvanderbot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wow that's harsh. Totally true. I downregulated the feedback to be a little more kind. My experience living in LA may have colored my response. To address the meat of your response > it to me reads as a tool to help ... I don't see why this even qualifies as tool. There's no summary, not flow of logic, no conclusion really, just some thing a former mentor used to call a "walk through the garden of thought". Sure, t…

Thank you for the frank sharing of where you are coming from and clarifying so richly your thinking, it's really valuable to me. It shows me again how we all are different and soothes me to a degree, reducing my expectations of myself around strangers. I agree with you, given that context. This article is not an effective brief nugget on emotional introspection for videogame writers. I see it intended to be something…

I am not sure SEO is a strong influence here. Maybe, but I credit the influence from Strunk and White.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103147...

16. Be clear.

and

    When you say something, make sure you have said it. The chances of your having said it are only fair.
What is being said here? And was it said? And was it said with 100 words when 10 would do? Were the other 90 words evidence or engaging content or ... a garden of thoughts?

Re: Don't Run into the Woods

#69

Post by squirtlebonflow »

ncr100 wrote: post #51
ghodith wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you the author? Somewhat strange to so defensively respond to every critical comment in this thread in the same manner.

I'm not the author. Yeah it is strange. I've been thinking about that too, while writing them. I believe that I'm using this opportunity to understand rejecting criticality, as it relates to intention. To go deeper, I think I frankly am lonely, and also feel pain about the dissonance between the commentary .. talking on this thread about the style of the author and missing the point of the author. That touches me in…

It makes sense why you are feeling that reaction to the reactions to your comments and how that relates to people's mixed reactions to the author's gamedev advice... what I can't understand is the phrase "rejecting criticality, as it relates to intention."
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