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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#61

Post by Xylakant »

Avalaxy wrote: post #34
hughesjj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

> I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing. Don't let the Germans know https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett

Some teams I worked with would ritually celebrate Mettwoch every Wednesday (Mittwoch).

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#62

Post by XorNot »

potatopatch wrote: post #57
steveBK123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever. Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was cont…

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

Everyone I've ever known? Who doesn't separate meat in their fridge, and who's keeping so much in there at one time that this is a problem?

Dating opening times is going too far IMO: if it's open, and longer then 7 days in the fridge you toss it. Which is to say, if you can't remember when you opened it, that's also a good sign not to eat it.

It's not like any of this is hard to do.

Although this:

> a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything,

is not really a statement on anything. "Sterilize" is a very specific term which means you did a process which is guaranteed to kill extant micro-organisms and viruses. But the reason hand-washing is so effective at preventing disease is that it doesn't necessarily kill them, but soap will wash them off surfaces very effectively. They're still alive, but they're in the sewer. Commercial dish washers aren't designed to sterilize either - they're designed to get things clean as fast as conceivably possible (i.e. single digit minutes, not hours).

The converse of this is the problem with old rice: reheating rice is periless, because while it will kill the bacterial contamination, the toxins remain and that's what will make you feel sick if you eat it.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#63

Post by lnsru »

potatopatch wrote: post #57
steveBK123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever. Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was cont…

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

We separate meats and cutting boards. The ones who were used for meat are being washed very carefully with lots of chemicals and hot water. Dishwasher runs at 65 degree Celsius. That’s enough for disinfection in my books. Plus cleaning with chlorine every 3 months. We have only couple things open in the fridge and don’t keep them for long. That means if pesto is open we eat noodles more often. There is no rocket science in keeping home kitchen in good shape.

Don’t let me start with a stories from a friend who worked as an interim manager at Burger King. It’s scary! But even worse are smaller industrial kitchens without strong control from state and franchise representatives.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#64

Post by saiya-jin »

glitchc wrote: post #43
hughesjj wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, to my knowledge, I've gotten food poisoning from something I cooked for myself exactly once, and that's because my 12 year old dumbass brain thought microwaving a steak for a few minutes was a valid was a valid way to cook it Almost every time I've actually gotten sick from food has been eating out. I've also seen some close calls like when my fiancee was served 'rare' pork... Which isn't a culinary thing.

That's called the sous la vie style of cooking, gaining popularity in busy North American households every decade.

I presume you meant 'sous vide', aka stewing stuff in plastic bags. When talking about various chemical crap in food and around it, I find it hilarious that folks consider baking food they eat in plastic bag as something to not even pause and think about healthwise

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#65

Post by pattmayne »

causi wrote: post #44

Horrible title, since the study didn't actually link normal detergent to gut damage, just rinse aid.

The offending ingredient (alcohol ephoxylate) is present in both my dishwasher pods and my rinse aid.

I might start skipping the rinse aid and I'll seek out dishwasher pods that don't have that ingredient.

But apparently it's more od an issue with "professional" (restaurant) dishwashers, which use less water and more chemicals. I gathered this from other comments and I don't know if it's true.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#66

Post by pattmayne »

stackzero wrote: post #40

Is there an ELI5?

Alcohol ephoxylate, which is present in rinse aid and some dishwasher pods,damages gut tissue and causes inflammatory and immune issues.

The study looked at concentrations found in "professional" (restaurant) doses of the chemicals.

I'm not sure how much it applies to residential dishwashers. I did find that ingredient in my rinse aid and dishwasher pods.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#67

Post by steveBK123 »

XorNot wrote: post #62
potatopatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

Everyone I've ever known? Who doesn't separate meat in their fridge, and who's keeping so much in there at one time that this is a problem? Dating opening times is going too far IMO: if it's open, and longer then 7 days in the fridge you toss it. Which is to say, if you can't remember when you opened it, that's also a good sign not to eat it. It's not like any of this is hard to do. Although this: > a home dishwasher…

Also restaurant vs home cooking is like a classic principal agent problem.

If I don't want to get sick, I store stuff reasonably, sniff before cooking, and don't hold things past date/days open.

A restaurant wanting to make money is incentivized against being "better safe than sorry" on throwing away stuff rather than serving it. They care more about complying with the letter of the law with respect to passing health inspections well enough. If they occasionally get someone sick, its not always probable that the customer attributes it back to them, and still.. may return anyway.

For the "you get food poisoning at home all the time and don't know it / its just like flu" crowd.. I'd argue you maybe have not had the most severe, rapid onset forms that you can get from a restaurant.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#68

Post by konamicode »

I might be generalising but in some countries (UK) it's common to not rinse soap/washing up liquid off dishes after washing them by hand. Being hypochondriac I was always curious about health aspects of this and feared something similar to what's described in the article.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#69

Post by steveBK123 »

lnsru wrote: post #63
potatopatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

We separate meats and cutting boards. The ones who were used for meat are being washed very carefully with lots of chemicals and hot water. Dishwasher runs at 65 degree Celsius. That’s enough for disinfection in my books. Plus cleaning with chlorine every 3 months. We have only couple things open in the fridge and don’t keep them for long. That means if pesto is open we eat noodles more often. There is no rocket scie…

Exactly, its not hard to control this at home.

Not to mention that the rate of failure of restaurants implies the probability that any given restaurant is in some amount of financial strain and maybe pushing the limits on ingredient freshness & cleaning standards...

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#70

Post by bilekas »

potatopatch wrote: post #57
steveBK123 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It is surprisingly hard to give yourself food poisoning if you cook for yourself. On the other hand, like you, essentially every food poisoning I've had was dining out. Suburbs with lax food safety enforcement, city with some of the most rigorous inspection regimes in the country, wherever. Once my wife & I both got food poisoning ordering completely different food, as though the entire food station was cont…

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

On that note I'm reminded hearing from a chef actually that if you've ever had diarrhea, its most likely you had a mild form of food poisoning.
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