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Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

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Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#61

Post by lproven »

Maybe it's just me but I'd be much more interested to see a bare-metal C65 emulator. The C65 was a far more interesting computer than the C64 or the C128 IMHO, and if all you want to do is play games then the C65 can run C64 stuff in its C64 mode anyway.

There are existing C65 emulators -- MAME supports it and there's the standalone Hi65: https://devilmaster.altervista.org/hi65.html

There seem to have been discussions about incorporating C65 into VICE, which BMC64 is based on, but it doesn't seem to have happened yet. That would be, for me, much cooler and more fun to experiment with.

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#62

Post by cmrdporcupine »

15155 wrote: post #45
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes and no. no or little OS abstraction, but still there's layers in the way, and it's still sequential in places where an FPGA could be parallel, etc. a Pi etc has a huge advantage in raw clock speed. FPGAs are pretty slow. at least the ones that you and i can afford

Every modern Xilinx FPGA with enough logic to implement a Commodore 64's functions can more than clock at the 1MHz required. 50MHz-200MHz is reasonable. A $40 Artix A35T can handle this. Why do you need more?

You don't, for a C64. We weren't talking in this subthread specifically about the C64 but about the broader idea of FPGA vs CPU driven emulation.

When you get into higher spec machines, esp from the 90s, FPGA starts to not be the best choice $$ per clock.

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#63

Post by rusk »

lproven wrote: post #60
rusk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunate the Pi 4 is more like a PC with a few layers of turtles between the user and the hardware. Up until then the pi were more like a microcontroller with a UI layer atop. You could peel that back and get at the raw goodies. The newer pi is vastly more complex and requires all these dark processes and proprietary firmware blobs beneath the OS to make it go.

> Up until then the pi were more like a microcontroller with a UI layer atop. This is not my area of expertise but from my understanding and reading, I would dispute that, strongly. The Pi 1, 2 & 3 all run the ThreadX RTOS on the GPU as their "firmware" and the Arm core(s) are started by ThreadX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThreadX Now ThreadX is owned by Microsoft but it wasn't when the Pi was designed and built.…

I perhaps overpaid the simplicity of the early pi’s but the point I was was making that you missed was more of comparison between the pi4 and the earlier models. Thanks.

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#64

Post by lproven »

rusk wrote: post #63
lproven wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Up until then the pi were more like a microcontroller with a UI layer atop. This is not my area of expertise but from my understanding and reading, I would dispute that, strongly. The Pi 1, 2 & 3 all run the ThreadX RTOS on the GPU as their "firmware" and the Arm core(s) are started by ThreadX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThreadX Now ThreadX is owned by Microsoft but it wasn't when the Pi was designed and built.…

I perhaps overpaid the simplicity of the early pi’s but the point I was was making that you missed was more of comparison between the pi4 and the earlier models. Thanks.

Is the Pi 4 so different in this regard?

It has more flexibility in what it boots from and so on, but ThreadX and so on are still involved.

I was told that the Pi 5 is significantly different, but not the 4. Are you perhaps mixing them up?

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#65

Post by scruss »

lproven wrote: post #61

Maybe it's just me but I'd be much more interested to see a bare-metal C65 emulator. The C65 was a far more interesting computer than the C64 or the C128 IMHO, and if all you want to do is play games then the C65 can run C64 stuff in its C64 mode anyway. There are existing C65 emulators -- MAME supports it and there's the standalone Hi65: https://devilmaster.altervista.org/hi65.html There seem to have been discussion…

Thing about the C65 is … what do you emulate?

Since it only ever got to prototype stages, the original C65s that are out there run a bewildering array of slightly buggy systems. All have quite different capabilities. Was it supposed to have a UI? We'll never know, and you won't get a unified answer from the ex-Commodore folks

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#66

Post by lproven »

scruss wrote: post #65
lproven wrote: post #61

Maybe it's just me but I'd be much more interested to see a bare-metal C65 emulator. The C65 was a far more interesting computer than the C64 or the C128 IMHO, and if all you want to do is play games then the C65 can run C64 stuff in its C64 mode anyway. There are existing C65 emulators -- MAME supports it and there's the standalone Hi65: https://devilmaster.altervista.org/hi65.html There seem to have been discussion…

Thing about the C65 is … what do you emulate? Since it only ever got to prototype stages, the original C65s that are out there run a bewildering array of slightly buggy systems. All have quite different capabilities. Was it supposed to have a UI? We'll never know, and you won't get a unified answer from the ex-Commodore folks

This is apparently a FAQ when it comes to C65 emulation, and as such, the developer of Hi65 has answered it in quite a few places already.

There aren't _that_ many -- few leaked, so it's not a big array of kit. The latest ROM would be preferable, and possibly fixing any outstanding bugs in it.

Another alternative is simply to emulate the Mega65.

https://mega65.org/

This could be the chance for a rebirth for the machine and thus set the standard rather than trying to follow it.

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#67

Post by rusk »

lproven wrote: post #64
rusk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I perhaps overpaid the simplicity of the early pi’s but the point I was was making that you missed was more of comparison between the pi4 and the earlier models. Thanks.

Is the Pi 4 so different in this regard? It has more flexibility in what it boots from and so on, but ThreadX and so on are still involved. I was told that the Pi 5 is significantly different, but not the 4. Are you perhaps mixing them up?

Maybe pal

Re: Bare Metal Emulation on the Raspberry Pi – Commodore 64

#68

Post by lproven »

rusk wrote: post #67
lproven wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the Pi 4 so different in this regard? It has more flexibility in what it boots from and so on, but ThreadX and so on are still involved. I was told that the Pi 5 is significantly different, but not the 4. Are you perhaps mixing them up?

Maybe pal

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