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To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

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61–70 of 169 posts

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#61

Flywheels are underrated tech for both stability and decentralized energy storage. They should receive environmental funding just like solar and wind do.

Are they safe and simple enough to operate at the neighborhood or even household level as a backup energy storage, where the grid is faulty? For example, in some region of Africa?

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#62
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grid itself can't store energy, the generation and consumption needs to be in balance. So while there may be huge variance in on both sides (a sunny day, a wind gust versus switching on the AC a train leaving the station) the only way to adjust is open a valve add steam, fuel? Will that scale to when, say, 80% of electricity sources are weather dependent? Or is that the pumped hydro / big batteries / future technol…

Grids have many-many consumers and many generators. So switching on a single AC does not have a noticeable effect. There are however correlated events like the famous East Enders peak in the UK (daily TV show at the end of which a large number of britons go and make tea with their 2kW electric kettles). But weather can span large areas and the solutions can be roughly categorized as: - some form of energy storage: ba…

Thanks for the great explanation!

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://amberkinetics.com Advantages over chemical batteries: >85% round trip efficiency (DC) >No daily cycling limitations >No degradation over time >Full power over full State-of-Charge range >No HVAC required >Operates in hot and cold environments (-20C to 50C) >Fast response time ( >Sustainable and recyclable all-steel design >Safe & reliable–no fire hazard >Lower O&M cost >30-year design life

Thanks -- what about disadvantages? Surely it's not all advantages.

What I've seen is they require fancy materials (carbon fiber, etc) due to the extremely high rotation rates (>100k rpm). For maximum efficiency, the flywheel needs to be in a vacuum to eliminate frictional air resistance losses. They also need magnetic bearings.

None of these are exactly a problem, they just cost money to implement properly.

I would say this copy + pasted list is not great.

No HVAC required - ok but you do need to suck down a huge vacuum, which is a lot more difficult than traditional HVAC

Hot and cold - see above point

All steel - not sure about that, maybe for lower speed applications, which reduces the amount of energy stored

Safe & reliable - hard to say that a huge mass spinning >100k rpm is "safe". By itself there is no fire hazard sure. but what if your magnetic bearings fail and it hops off and starts trying to escape it's (vacuum) enclosure. Then you have tons of sparks and pressure differences and other non-fun things.

O&M - [citation required]

30 year life - surely with all the plusses listed, it should be longer than 30 year life?

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#64

Flywheels are underrated tech for both stability and decentralized energy storage. They should receive environmental funding just like solar and wind do.

Are they safe and simple enough to operate at the neighborhood or even household level as a backup energy storage, where the grid is faulty? For example, in some region of Africa?

Seems like this is already done:

https://amberkinetics.com/installation/the-reliable-energy-s...

https://amberkinetics.com/installations/

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#65
post #37

This is why the common trope of "The grid can't function without the inertia from big heavy generators!!" detracting the rise of renewables is invalid. Synthetic grid strength has been available for a century. Today the research focuses on "Grid forming inverters". Taking the same principle as powering a home in island mode and stretching it to the entire grid allowing non-synchronous generators to provide the system…

Yes, the mechanism which can provide power for some 45 seconds is a generator replacement. Sigh…

Yes?

This is about Inertia and frequency control. Not about bulk energy storage.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#66

Flywheels are underrated tech for both stability and decentralized energy storage. They should receive environmental funding just like solar and wind do.

Can you point to resources explaining why they're a good choice? Because the general consensus seems to be that large things like pumped hydro are good for centralized energy storage, while batteries are the choice for decentralized energy storage -- whether in your utility closet or in your EV. Why should anyone choose a flywheel over a battery?

When you have multiple cycles per day, the higher price of flywheels trumps over the limited but cheaper battery lifespan. Batteries degrade with charge cycles.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#67
post #31

As an aside, one of the most stunning proofs of how successful the European Union is happened with the grid. On 8 January 2021, the synchronous area of Continental Europe split into two, the system separation resulted in a deficit of power (approx. -6.3 GW) in the North-West Area and a surplus of power (approx. +6.3 GW) in the South-East Area, The reaction speed was something to behold. The event happened at 14:05 CE…

>As an aside, one of the most stunning proofs of how successful the European Union is happened with the grid. On 8 January 2021, the synchronous area of Continental Europe split into two

The European grid has nothing to do with the EU. The grid includes non-EU countries like Switzerland and Norway. The UK did not leave the grid after Brexit; its interconnections with Ireland and the continent still exist.

The US and Canada's grids are interconnected without the two nations being integrated as closely as the EU member states are.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#68
post #31

As an aside, one of the most stunning proofs of how successful the European Union is happened with the grid. On 8 January 2021, the synchronous area of Continental Europe split into two, the system separation resulted in a deficit of power (approx. -6.3 GW) in the North-West Area and a surplus of power (approx. +6.3 GW) in the South-East Area, The reaction speed was something to behold. The event happened at 14:05 CE…

I found this article from bloomberg on the event! > Europe’s grid, which is usually connected from Lisbon to Istanbul, split into two as the northwest and southeast regions struggled to keep the same frequency. The problem originated in Croatia and led to the equivalent of 200,000 households losing power across Europe. Supply to industrial sites was cut in France and Italy. > Transmission grids need to stay at a freq…

Apologise to pick nits, but if it is not Turkey it is Türkiye. The former is perfectly fine in English.

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#69
post #37

This is why the common trope of "The grid can't function without the inertia from big heavy generators!!" detracting the rise of renewables is invalid. Synthetic grid strength has been available for a century. Today the research focuses on "Grid forming inverters". Taking the same principle as powering a home in island mode and stretching it to the entire grid allowing non-synchronous generators to provide the system…

Yes, the mechanism which can provide power for some 45 seconds is a generator replacement. Sigh…

Lucky that has nothing to do with how grid stability works then… We’re talking about frequency correction, reactive power control etc. here!

Re: To free the Baltic grid, old technology is new again

#70
post #31

As an aside, one of the most stunning proofs of how successful the European Union is happened with the grid. On 8 January 2021, the synchronous area of Continental Europe split into two, the system separation resulted in a deficit of power (approx. -6.3 GW) in the North-West Area and a surplus of power (approx. +6.3 GW) in the South-East Area, The reaction speed was something to behold. The event happened at 14:05 CE…

I found this article from bloomberg on the event! > Europe’s grid, which is usually connected from Lisbon to Istanbul, split into two as the northwest and southeast regions struggled to keep the same frequency. The problem originated in Croatia and led to the equivalent of 200,000 households losing power across Europe. Supply to industrial sites was cut in France and Italy. > Transmission grids need to stay at a freq…

You don't need that, the official report is good https://www.entsoe.eu/news/2021/07/15/final-report-on-the-se...
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