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'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

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Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#61
post #17

It's interesting. I have seen rating systems work – in the military. They're harsh to some, but in some situations, you have to filter out B and C players to keep the A players alive. I do think transparent systems w/360º peer reviews are better than many others. I wonder what else is out there that might work.

You mention rating so maybe you're talking about enlisted only, which granted I don't know how those work.

But the up-or-out system used for officers in the US military is notorious for being primarily political after like O3 and historically almost comically incapable of rejecting unqualified but politically sophisticated/connected officers.

Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#63
I worked with Ferrucci in BW. The internals of the employee rating system that preceded him were hilarious. In short:

Everyone is encouraged to rate anyone else in a variety of categories, as often as possible. Every rating is public. You know who is rating you, and how they did it. Those ratings are put together to get a score in every category, and can be seen by anyone. It's your Baseball Card.

The problem is that not everyone is equally 'credible' in their rating. If I am bad at underwater basketweaving, my opinions on the matter are useless. But if I become good, suddenly my opinion is very important. You can imagine how, as one accumulates ratings, the system becomes unstable: My high credibility makes someone else have bad credibility, which changes the rankings again. How many iterations do we run before we consider the results stable? Maybe there's two groups of people that massively disagree in a topic. One will be high credibility, and the other bad, and that determines final scores. Maybe the opinion of one other random employee just changes everyone else's scores massively.

So the first thing is that the way we know an iteration is good involves whether certain key people are rated highly or not, because anything that, say, said that Ray is bad at critical thinking is obviously faulty. So ultimately winners and losers on anything contentious are determined by fiat.

So then we have someone who is highly rated, and is 100% aware of who is rating them badly. Do you really think it's safe to do that? I don't. Therefore, if you don't have very significant clout, your rating of people should be simple: Go look at that person's baseball card, and rate something very similar in that category. Anything else is asking for trouble. You are supposed to be honest... but honestly, its better to just agree with those that are credible.

So what you get is a system where, if you are smart, you mostly agree with the bosses... but not too much, as to show that you are an independent thinker. But you better disagree in places that don't matter too much.

If there's anything surprising, is that more people involved into the initiative stayed on board that long, because it's clear that the stated goals and the actual goals are completely detached from each other. It's unsurprising that it's not a great place to work, although the pay is very good.

Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#66
post #47

Ugh, I had a recruiter approach me a couple of years ago to work for some company that had a "radical openness" culture or something like that. The idea was supposedly that everyones ideas were valid and hierarchy didn't matter and that everyone should challenge anything no matter who they were in the organisation. The way they sold it sounded a bit culty to me, and the potential for abusive behaviour seemed high. Di…

> The idea was supposedly that everyones ideas were valid and hierarchy didn't matter and that everyone should challenge anything no matter who they were in the organisation. On the engineering side, ideally this is how things are done anyway. I've never had a problem digging into the ideas presented by engineers more senior than me, and I've always encouraged junior engineers to question any ideas I present. Everyon…

Just because you are in engineering does not mean politics, culture, psychology stop applying. It's really no different than any job at all. Engineers will often think they're in some kind of meritocracy, when in reality they're just as trapped by social constructions as anyone else.

Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#67

Ugh, I had a recruiter approach me a couple of years ago to work for some company that had a "radical openness" culture or something like that. The idea was supposedly that everyones ideas were valid and hierarchy didn't matter and that everyone should challenge anything no matter who they were in the organisation. The way they sold it sounded a bit culty to me, and the potential for abusive behaviour seemed high. Di…

That's a completely different thing from constantly rating each other in public with more senior people's ratings being given more weight.

Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#68

I mellowed out when I realized crystal energy chasers and systems peddled by MBAs were equally unsubstantiated and unfalsifiable, seeking answers to the same things: fulfillment and productivity

Yeah, but the MBAs can take away your food supply.

Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#69
post #51
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen multiple. The one I like is 'pinks and blues' where you're given two of each - a pink and a blue - and you write out why you think two dudes should get a blue (good) and a bad (pink). If you start accruing a bunch of pinks, there's a problem. It's very simple and probably wouldn't pass muster with an HR department, but it was effective at getting rid of turds.

Can you split the votes as you want among the candidates or does each have to get at least one review? How often do you rate? Do you only rate peers, or new hires? What about superiors? I could not find any reference to this system. As a person below said it recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_voting

It sounds like it's not an automated rating system and doesn't rank people. It only identifies really good people and really bad people.

Re: 'Ray, this is a religion': How Bridgewater lost two top hires

#70

> The truth is that at Bridgewater, some are more equal than others. And Ray Dalio is the most equal one of all. Major Animal Farm vibes.

I think this is just human nature. Dalio just systematized it and put it out in the open. We are primates.
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