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Why programming languages matter [video]

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Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#61
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have any good counterpoints to this? From my, naive, perspective, this seems to be relatively true. I've always assumed that, by now, I would be able to write code, in a semi mainstream language, and it would be made somewhat parallel, by the compiler. No need for threads, or me thinking of it. There's projects like https://polly.llvm.org , but I guess I assumed there would be more progress through the de…

Proving legality of transformations in the compiler is frequently impossible. Consequently, the main mode of implementation has been to essentially think of the problems in terms of the user saying that this loop is parallel, please make it run in parallel. OpenMP or Rust's rayon crate, for example. The other similar innovation has been programming SIMD as if each lane were an independent thread, which is essentially…

Maybe some history will help here too. In the 90s, the data model of most programming languages wasnt even array-of-structs, but array-of-pointers to otehr pointers to other pointers...

And the majority of software we've inherited is written this way.

In the 90s this didnt matter, since dereferencing a pointer was comparably expensive to arithmetical operations. But with modern CPUs with massive caches and more native parallelisation, the difference is dramatic.

So, even now, the majority of languages we're using; and almost all code we've inherited today, are as far away as you can get from efficiently using modern CPUs.

The task is first to change all these languages to enable ergonomic programming without tons of indirection -- we're very far away from even providing basic tools for performant code

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#62
post #45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean, specifically, "compiler team for AI"? I get it that it's some hot new trend from the last 2 posts, but I'm struggling to imagine what exactly the perfect product should look like and why everyone wants it so bad, allegedly.

I believe it's either related to the new AI-specialized chips, or maybe to the factoring or neural network graphs. Any specialized domain tend to have its own domain specific language, so obviously it would be true for AI, too.

correct, every AI chip maker needs their own compiler team these days

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#63
post #51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see what you’re trying to do with the comparison, but it’s not really the same. In your example, the two things are separated by at a minimum one layer of emergence: your example is more like saying biology is just chemistry. In maths and programming, they are both at the same level, no emergence. I also haven’t found what you say to be true at all— As I’ve been learning more maths and more programming, and learnin…

I was an academic physicist for the first several years of my post-graduate school career--I, too, see much value in having multiple perspectives to a problem. But that's quite different from your other claim. Maths and programming are not at the same level. When one writes a "hello world" program, math does not figure into the final text of the code at all . Similarly, when one writes code to implement a system inte…

I completely disagree, but I don’t have the energy to argue or explain.

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#64
post #54
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what "silver bullet" claims you've heard, but I'm not sure how that is relevant to this thread. I don't think I've made any outlandish claims, or any claims that aren't substantiated by a preponderance of academic literature.

Functional programmers regularly claim: -Haskell is faster than C (lol) -FP gives you free concurrency -FP makes code more testable -FP is easier to read -FP is easier to consume for people -FP results in no bugs -FP is easier to change -FP will literally suck your peepee -Actually FP is the second coming for Christ It’s really funny how you also pretend you’ve never heard of all the silver bullet claims that are inc…

I agree with some of these points, but none of them are claims I made in the context of this discussion, so I’m not sure why you’re even arguing about those. It’s irrelevant.

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#65
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some relevant PL research STM: https://cs.brown.edu/~mph/HerlihyM93/herlihy93transactional.... Region based memory management: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region-based_memory_management Rust lifetimes, originally from Cyclone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_%28programming_languag... Mutable value semantics: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2106.12678.pdf

STM is about hardware, not programming languages, but is decently recent so maybe someone will actually try it in hardware and see if it provides a good benefit for the increased complexity of the chip. Region based memory management was first conceived in 1967 and is achievable by any programming language that lets you manage memory yourself. Mutable value semantics in native code have been available since at least…

The paper that OP linked to is indeed about hardware transactional memory, but STM is a variation of transactional memory that is implemented entirely in software.

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#66
post #6
post #4

Very little innovation in programming languages has happened regarding new realities at the hardware level especially transition from serial to parallel execution.

Does anyone have any good counterpoints to this? From my, naive, perspective, this seems to be relatively true. I've always assumed that, by now, I would be able to write code, in a semi mainstream language, and it would be made somewhat parallel, by the compiler. No need for threads, or me thinking of it. There's projects like https://polly.llvm.org , but I guess I assumed there would be more progress through the de…

It isn't really. There have been plenty of innovations in parallel computing:

* Go, with goroutines and heavy use of channels.

* Rust which is free of data races and generally improves the safety of multithreaded programming via Sync, Send and just safer APIs (e.g. Mutex).

* Chapel, which is a language designed primarily for multithreaded and multiprocess computing.

Those are just the ones I know about. There's obviously way more.

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#67

Programming languages do matter but not as much as many people think f.ex. the HN crowd has a soft spot for LISP, and most of the don't even have proper parallel execution (and no I am not talking OS threads, having direct access to those should honestly be removed at one point). And sure, Racket and a few others are "Working on having an actor model". Wake me up when they achieve it. I am betting on somewhere in the…

If anything, in my eyes it's exactly because programming languages matter is the reason why we should have less of them. We should start folding some languages inside others. (Or abandon them.)

As a counterpoint, the programming industry is vast, so the opportunity cost of using tools that are not as good as they could be is also very high. If we don’t continue to explore new possibilities, how will we make those tools better? How can we learn what is worth keeping, what to combine, what to abandon?

I believe there is huge potential in finding better programming languages and better programming models for them to describe. We are still at the stage where we are worrying about whether our programs are even behaving correctly. Sometimes we get as far as worrying about performance. There is a lot of talk about productivity but it is relatively rare that we consider language design as a way of expressing our ideas more efficiently or making it easier for someone else to understand them later.

If we look at languages like Haskell or Erlang or Rust, these have certainly been used professionally, but in the long term their most important contribution might be the ideas they introduced to wider audiences rather than anything written in those languages themselves.

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#68

Programming languages do matter but not as much as many people think f.ex. the HN crowd has a soft spot for LISP, and most of the don't even have proper parallel execution (and no I am not talking OS threads, having direct access to those should honestly be removed at one point). And sure, Racket and a few others are "Working on having an actor model". Wake me up when they achieve it. I am betting on somewhere in the…

I support abandoning dynamic typing.

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#69

Programming languages do matter but not as much as many people think f.ex. the HN crowd has a soft spot for LISP, and most of the don't even have proper parallel execution (and no I am not talking OS threads, having direct access to those should honestly be removed at one point). And sure, Racket and a few others are "Working on having an actor model". Wake me up when they achieve it. I am betting on somewhere in the…

> Programming languages do matter but not as much as many people think f.ex. the HN crowd has a soft spot for LISP, and most of the don't even have proper parallel execution

I don’t understand how the argument about LISP would imply that programming languages matter “not as much as many people think”

Re: Why programming languages matter [video]

#70

Programming languages do matter but not as much as many people think f.ex. the HN crowd has a soft spot for LISP, and most of the don't even have proper parallel execution (and no I am not talking OS threads, having direct access to those should honestly be removed at one point). And sure, Racket and a few others are "Working on having an actor model". Wake me up when they achieve it. I am betting on somewhere in the…

> Wake me up when they achieve it. I am betting on somewhere in the 2030s, best case scenario

(slap)

(wake-up sleepy)

common lisp has actors for a while now

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