Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification • Hacker News Board

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#61

Post by MattPalmer1086 » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

Or possibly our descendants ;)

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#62

Post by bparsons » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

There are good use cases for both technologies.

For smaller, lighter vehicles in warmer climates, lithium batteries make a lot of sense.

For heavy, long haul trucks that require minimal refueling, hydrogen fuel cell makes a lot of sense.

You need to build out the infrastructure for both.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#63

Post by parker_mountain » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

Fun fact: per mile driven, there are about 1/10th to 1/5th as many EV fires, as there are gas car fires.

Putting ten gallons of highly toxic and flammable fuel into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Electric tech is marginally less crazy, and also a step forward.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#64

Post by onethought » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #15

please feel free to vote me down into oblivion because, you know, "I'm wrong"... But I would prefer a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle over a battery-electric for a number of reasons. The first is theoretical recharge/refuel times, but the second is firefighter rescue personnel safety. BEVs are here-and-now technology though, and I don't oppose them, it's just I plan to wait until hydrogen technology matures and reaches de…

But a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle has a battery that is cycled much more than a BEV (because it’s small). So a fuel cell vehicle has less durability not more.

How can you have an opinion on firefighter rescue and personal safety when there is next to no comparable data on fuel cell vehicles?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#65

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #31

Electrification for millions and millions of cars will never work, we don't have the "green" energy resources to actually produce that electricity, and second, and just as important, we don't have the distribution network that will be able to carry that extra power (both in the US and in Europe). So that leaves us with the logical conclusion that we won't have millions and millions personal cars going forward, for be…

> we don't have the distribution network that will be able to carry that extra power

I think people overestimate the net change in consumption. Making a gallon of gasoline takes about as much electricity as moving a BEV the distance the ICEV would go on that gallon. What'll change a bit is the distribution of the energy. But given that much of it will happen at night when the grid has historically been very underutilized, the net impact isn't a huge problem to deal with.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#66

Post by lbourdages » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

malchow wrote: post #27

Pxtl wrote: post #20

Yup. It's painfully obvious here in Canada, where the loudest champion of hydrogen-powered vehicles is the Premiere of the oil-and-gas-generating province of Alberta, and she's an ideological-conservative pro-oil leader at that. Seeing people like that rally to hydrogen over EVs is the loudest argument against the tech. Hydrogen technology doesn't exist to save the Earth, it exists to save the natural gas industry. T…

Green hydrogen is developing now, and is very real, and is based on polysilicon solar advancements and PEM electrolyzer advancements, both of which provide ~3 decadal cost-down paths. See these two companies of ours: [1] https://ohmium.com [2] https://novohydrogen.com

Suspiciously missing are efficiency numbers. How many "joules of hydrogen" do you get from one joule of electricity? We already know electric cars are on the order of 80% efficiency overall.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#67

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

teaearlgraycold wrote: post #28

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

My understanding is liquid hydrogen could be a contender for a green jet fuel alternative. Batteries are too heavy.

I think we'll see a synthetic version of jet fuel before we see a hydrogen powered plane in mass production.

Far less trouble to store and use and much higher energy density, also works with existing airframes (fuel tanks!) and engines.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#68

Post by mohaine » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

malchow wrote: post #10

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Are you referring to hydrogen as a mobility fuel specifically? I generally agree. However, it is a critical large-scale industrial input, a replacement industrial input for several additional large industries, and an excellent large-scale stationary energy store.

Is it an excellent large-scale stationary energy store though?

I mean, it seems like it should be but

* Hydrogen really likes to leak.

* Hydrogen breaks down the container holding it over time.

* Hydrogen is very low density. This means you need either a very large container or very high pressure. Combined with 1 and 2 this is going to be expensive.

I'm really asking the question. I would love to know the full cost difference with current tech vs other options.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#69

Post by oblio » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:11 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

> Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view.

And ICEs are powered by many thousands of mini explosions per minute with a side effect of producing an odorless gas that can kill us silently.

Everything can be scaremongered.

And personal transportation, as much as I wish wasn't the case, is a fact of life since 1910.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#70

Post by _gtly » Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 9:12 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

A canister of hydrogen in your car isn't exactly safe, either!!