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XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

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Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#61
post #54

The lack of microtype support in XeTeX is a deal breaker. That's the main reason why I continue to use pdflatex.

Microtype is partially supported (read: half of what it mainly does), i.e. protrusion sort of works, but expansion does not. Protrusion is already something, though I agree that this is one of the biggest things holding me back from switching completely.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#62
post #52

There are two problems with TeX (in general): 1. It is a local maximum. It produces great output and works now. Changing it requires a huge effort which will result in a system that is inferior, for many years to come. Only then another maximum could be achieved. This means there is resistance to change — it's easier to adapt to TeX's flaws than it is to write something completely new. Many systems suffer from simila…

> 2. It is a black hole, a programmer sink. People start using TeX and curse it, then they learn it, and by the time they know its limitations and are ready to take on a job of writing something better, they are proficient enough in TeX to stay within it. Many systems suffer from similar fate (think Emacs).

I don't really see this. Tex requires a huge investment to learn, but so do most programming languages. That doesn't mean the languages are bad or need replacing. I think that the high cost of entry to tex programming is not necessarily a tex problem -- it's difficult to visualize a system with equal power being much easier to learn. (Though the rough edges could be smoother.)

More importantly, when you say "Take on the job of writing something better", I have to believe that there are very very few who are up for this task in the world, and it would probably require their combined efforts. It doesn't seem likely at this stage. Maybe eventually, though.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of mathematics and physics conference/journal publishing, there's a widespread perception that it's losing ground. In CS some conferences are slowly switching to Word, or offering an option to authors (who are slowly switching to Word, especially outside of theory-heavy areas). In book publishing it's shrunk to a very small niche, even in technical areas. Part of the problem is cruftiness of tools, and part i…

Yeah, TeX is a really broken tech in 2012. When I tried to look at the base languages to edit a BibTeX file, it blew my mind. I'm lucky that LaTeX has templates that I like, I have no possible means of making one myself. It seems like the whole article misses the point. pdftex doesn't need replacing, TeX needs replacing. Pandoc (with some better extension method) + CSS style sheets + TeX algorithm layout engine would…

Thank you for informing me about the existence of Pandoc.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#64
post #24
post #2

In all honesty I did not realise LaTeX needed saving.

I don't know. I can write LaTex but I must admit at times I would prefer something that could be written from a real language but still use LaTeXs typesetting, kerning, etc.

Multimarkdown allows you to convert markdown into LaTeX.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#65
post #51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TeX community in general has a philosophy that anything written since 1983 (TeX'83) or so should a) compile and b) produce precisely the same typeset document if it is recompiled today. This has obnoxious issues and is one of the reasons for the profusion of packages--the norm is to change the name for incompatible changes so that old users can continue on.

Which is a ridiculous goal, because, in general, most documents found in the wild are portable if transported together with the author's computer system. Chances of successfully producing typeset output from a .tex file (+ a bunch of external files) that you get from someone else are slim to none. I'm glad there is a movement to do something. I used to use TeX but stopped a long time ago, because it was simply too mu…

Actually anything that's gotten as far as journal publication should be exactly reproducible; I remember having to include the packages I was using and everything else in one archive for my couple of journal publications. Conceded that folks are not quite so careful for off the cuff work; same thing as having file:/// URIs in web pages.

And I'm hesitant to complain about it too greatly; my father's PhD thesis cannot be reproduced without a specific type ball for a Selectric and I know of numerous people who have kept dragging their old text files off disk packs to magtape to 8" disks to 5 1/4" disks to 3 1/2" disks and finally to CD ROMs where they have to duplicate all the CDs every few years lest they become unreadable due to dye fade. I know several photographers who are downright paranoid about an almost literal bitrot—if you ever want to see someone spitting mad with rage, telling a photographer that his precious negative or RAW file cannot be located, or read, or even decoded (a nontrivial issue with RAWs and older image formats, and depending on language and system even with text files!) will get you there.

Saying "if you preserved the files, we will recreate your masterpiece exactly" might be an overreaction to this but it's not impossible to understand where people are coming from. Particularly the poor dears coming from Word where moving a document from 2002 to 2008 will change the typesetting subtly and sometimes not so subtly.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#66
I think one of the best moves to get this in the works would be updated tutorials and documentation "Using LaTeX in 2012" or whatever, because a huge amount of the resources out there will promote use of outdated or old packages that would hinder moving forward.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#67
post #52

There are two problems with TeX (in general): 1. It is a local maximum. It produces great output and works now. Changing it requires a huge effort which will result in a system that is inferior, for many years to come. Only then another maximum could be achieved. This means there is resistance to change — it's easier to adapt to TeX's flaws than it is to write something completely new. Many systems suffer from simila…

Many systems suffer from similar fate (think Emacs)

That happens so much in software there needs to be a word for it, a term of its own.

After a while, you get deep enough in the rabbit hole so that it seems your initial judgement of redundant complexity was wrong. Even though it's still true, you've adapted to it. You just can't see it from the viewpoint of someone new anymore. For this reason I tend to carefully write down my initial concerns with something.

More on-topic, I don't think what TeX needs is a complete, sudden break with the past. It would be better to deprecate old, flawed features, and later on disable them and provide and optional compatibility mode (which is a bigger download).

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#68

I didn't understand why they wanted to port LaTeX to the iPad when they first wrote about it: http://lee-phillips.org/latexipad/

I'm sorry, but your logic here is just terrible. Your argument is that "I don't want an iPad" and "The iPad isn't a full computer" implies that "Nobody needs/wants LaTeX on an iPad". This doesn't logically follow and is instead a self-centered presumption that because you don't want something, nobody else does. They want LaTeX on their iPads, I would like LaTeX on my iPad, and I have met other people who also want La…

That would indeed be a bad argument. I'm glad I didn't try to make it. The iPad is a superb browsing/reading device. But sometimes people insist on using the wrong tool for the job. You want LaTeX on your iPad. But you don't have it and won't get it, because it's not a computer. That was my point. You want to take notes and use LaTeX? Why didn't you buy a used Thinkpad for $100 from ebay and install linux? That's what I did. I don't have the excellent iPad screen (or the battery life - I certainly see your point there), but I don't have to say "I wish this could run LaTeX / Gimp / gcc / python / ....".

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#69

XeTeX-generated PDFs are not compatible with the toolchains of some academic publishers (Cambridge University Press, which publishes the Journal of Functional Programming comes to mind, but I seem to recall Springer-Verlag having issues as well). Without full support for academic publishers, I believe that majority of TeX users could not upgrade.

What about XeTeX-generated PDFs makes them incompatible?

Great question; I have no idea. We just get mail back from the editors that says things like, "your PDF breaks our scripts; regenerate it directly with LaTeX."

Some, like Springer-Verlag, also have an editorial process where you have to send your .tex files to them and they will merge all of the documents and run LaTeX on them. I don't even know how you could get xetex (or pdflatex) to work with that system.

Re: XeTeX: could it be TeX's saviour?

#70
post #51
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The TeX community in general has a philosophy that anything written since 1983 (TeX'83) or so should a) compile and b) produce precisely the same typeset document if it is recompiled today. This has obnoxious issues and is one of the reasons for the profusion of packages--the norm is to change the name for incompatible changes so that old users can continue on.

Which is a ridiculous goal, because, in general, most documents found in the wild are portable if transported together with the author's computer system. Chances of successfully producing typeset output from a .tex file (+ a bunch of external files) that you get from someone else are slim to none. I'm glad there is a movement to do something. I used to use TeX but stopped a long time ago, because it was simply too mu…

People who downvoted me obviously never had to deal with documents that you have to process with TeXLive greater than something, and then only with particular fonts properly installed in the system (ever tried to install an OTF font? ever seen UTF-8 or ISO-8859-2 character encoding in a document?). Not to mention obsolete versions of packages that the author had on his system.

Well, I did have to deal with such documents, hence my comment. It was an informed rant.

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