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Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

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Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#61
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels like modern form of absolving sins. All you need is charismatic preacher to bop you on theforhead and say you are saved.

It's not a terrible idea as a way of funding work to scrub atmospheric carbon for companies who don't want to or can't do it themselves. I just wish we were more strict about only including sellers that remove (not reduce) carbon from the atmosphere in a directly measurable way.

> scrub atmospheric carbon

I've seen this phrasing frequently in regards to carbon sequestration and it always seems to wildly understate the real problem with removing CO2 from the atmosphere.

CO2 isn't some unnecessary byproduct of creating energy, compared to say soot in wood burning. The CO2 created is an essential part of the carbon cycle by which all living things store and release solar energy. CO2 + H2O + (Solar) Energy => Hydrocarbons + O2. This is how energy is stored on our planet from the energy in a high calorie soda to petroleum (okay technically sugar is not a hydrocarbon, but the idea still holds).

When we extract energy from foods, burning organic material, or fossil fuels we do so by reversing that equation: Hydrocarbons + 02 => CO2 + H2O + Energy

To "scrub" carbon necessarily requires more energy than we got out of the process in the first place. Photosynthesis, for example, is only 4% efficient. Which means it takes about 25x as much solar energy to build the log you burn then the heat and light you experience burning the log.

"Scrubbing" CO2 fundamentally requires tremendous amounts of energy, and more than we got from the energy source in the first place. There are natural processes, like rock weathering, than can do this without energy inputs, but those are hard to replicate and scale.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#62

Are there any that aren't junk? Wren got a lot of promotion by YouTubers recently. Maybe they were paid to say nice things? Doesn't prove it's junk though? Where would you invest if you wanted to help?

I looked into Wren and others a little while ago and raised my eyebrows when I saw that all that was needed to completely offset my impact on the environment was a tiny sliver of my income! I don’t recall the exact number but it was under $60/mo. That’s it? For my travel, growing and shipping and refrigerating all of my food, digging up and purifying all the special metals in my devices and appliances, throwing all m…

Net zero will probably save you money, not cost you money.

But giving you that small amount, or even charging you a small amount doesn't solve the problem, even after you scale it up to billions doing it. Because those billions are currently going to a relatively small number of people who really don't want those billions to stop coming to them and have the concentrated power to stop the vast democratic majority from getting their way.

And one of their techniques, alongside pretending the problem doesn't exist, or blaming other people, is to claim it would be expensive to fix.

Imagine a monopolist arguing, oh it would be really expensive to fix this market failure! and you have the rough idea.

It's a "collective action" problem, not one of missing tech or unwillingness to pay.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These programs are about control, and wealth redistribution lets stop pretending otherwise Shrug , if it's all BS but it does something to the mind-bogglingly skewed wealth distribution[1] we can still chalk it up as a win. [1] https://youtu.be/QPKKQnijnsM?si=90mDv90g1mq6-a0T

If you want to advocate wealth distribution fine, do it openly and honestly, not under the guise of a "climate crisis" Of course most people understand wealth distribution is generally bad, and leads to terrible outcomes and rarely actually fairly and equitably distributes any wealth that is why it is almost universally rejected by the masses when tried. wealth distribution is normally simply a method to impose autho…

> Of course most people understand wealth distribution is generally bad

Evidence to the contrary is the US progressive taxation policy, which is universally popular. In the absence of sane wealth redistribution mechanisms, wealth inevitably accumulates and stays at the top, at which point the vast power concentrated in a tiny group of hands hollows out democracy.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#65

S06E06 of Penn & Teller: Bullshit! debunked carbon credits. That was 15 years ago. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1272784/

Carbon credits can work in a system where you don't just let people make them with weak verification. The problem isn't the underlying concept.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#66
post #57

Three years ago I entered this business as I saw some opportunity. After about a year I got out because everything there was fraud. F R A U D. >most of them exaggerate climate benefits and underestimate the potential harm [...] >projects were categorised as “likely junk or worthless” due to one or more “fundamental failing” that undermines its alleged emissions offsetting power [...] Stop trying to disguise these ope…

Did you find any schemes where you were satisfied they were genuine? I'd love to know where I could donate money where I could be confident it genuinely had an impact

There were a few carbon capture (CC) projects that were genuine, shoutout to the guys at AirMiners, they also have a great community and they're a pretty smart bunch of people.

Downside of CC is it's still too expensive and current methods capture carbon on the order of kilograms/month where gigatons/month is needed. Sure, the tech will improve with time, and there's economies of scale, etc..., but a 10,000,000,000-fold change? Doubt it. Also, there's some fundamental physical limits that you'll hit way before you get close to that throughput. I wouldn't think of them as fraud though, as the people involved (usually) do not lie about what the current state of tech is.

I'd say whatever shows reduction on carbon emissions is a legit thing; far from ideal, but the best thing we have atm.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#67
post #4

I once worked somewhere where I found some evidence that the offsets we were considering buying were probably junk. The CEO agreed, bought them anyway, and proudly proclaimed to all staff how we were now a net-zero company. Junk offsets are cheaper.

Feels like modern form of absolving sins. All you need is charismatic preacher to bop you on theforhead and say you are saved.

It is. A modern instantiation of buying indulgences from the Catholic Church. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

A hug part of the power of religions, such as christianity or ESG, is that it provides a mechanism to allow normal people to engage in evil but feel forgiven or justified.

"If someone can make you believe absurdities, they can make you commit atrocities."

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#68
post #4

I once worked somewhere where I found some evidence that the offsets we were considering buying were probably junk. The CEO agreed, bought them anyway, and proudly proclaimed to all staff how we were now a net-zero company. Junk offsets are cheaper.

If only there was a way for the government to incentive folks to stop consuming and companies to stop producing by rewarding folks who don't with some kind of monetary compensation.

Re: Investigation: 78% of carbon offset projects globally are “likely junk“

#69
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a terrible idea as a way of funding work to scrub atmospheric carbon for companies who don't want to or can't do it themselves. I just wish we were more strict about only including sellers that remove (not reduce) carbon from the atmosphere in a directly measurable way.

> scrub atmospheric carbon I've seen this phrasing frequently in regards to carbon sequestration and it always seems to wildly understate the real problem with removing CO2 from the atmosphere. CO2 isn't some unnecessary byproduct of creating energy, compared to say soot in wood burning. The CO2 created is an essential part of the carbon cycle by which all living things store and release solar energy. CO2 + H2O + (So…

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