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Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#61

Post by zaroth »

gameoverhumans wrote: post #8
jojobas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current electric semis are only good for hauling potato chips (i.e. mostly air) for any distance over 100km. Weight is very very valuable on both passenger cars and commercial trucks. Hauling those extra 300-500kg vs a comparable size sedan comes at a steep cost too, as increasing weight requires stronger/wheels body, wheels, brakes, even engines. There is a huge demand for higher energy density, preferably of a non-…

As I understand it, electric cars are actually surprisingly polluting, which is a consequence of their battery weight and particulates from tires: https://dynomight.net/tires/

Just for reference, some cars’ curb weights in kg;

  Standard Range Model 3: 1617
  Long Range RWD Model 3: 1779
  Long Range AWD Model 3: 1900
  2022 Toyota Camry XLE:  1630
  2021 Audi A6:           1970

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#63

Post by bumby »

atoav wrote: post #16
VBprogrammer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saving a few hundred kilos of mass on a truck that pulls 80 tonne is just not that valuable. From my understanding of the trucking industry, in many sectors, this isn't true at all. For example, in tipper trucks where you are carrying literal dirt and rocks from one place to another every kg counts and tare weight of the truck is very much a consideration, even in the relatively minor variations between diesel truc…

> In the US weight restrictions are even lower than in Europe in many states. Given that road wear grows to the fourth power (!) with vehicle weight, I hope you guys feel well with the fact that your tax dollar subsidizes those ultra heavy trucks.

>Given that road wear grows to the fourth power

Where can we find more on this? I'm not doubting, but I can't think of why this is. It's pretty rare to find much in the physical world that uses the 4th power (Hagen–Poiseuille equation relating fluid pressure differential in a pipe - or artery - is one of the few that comes to mind)

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#64

Post by aidenn0 »

pjc50 wrote: post #50
mcdonje wrote: post #47

Since it's relatively low pressure (5% of a hydrogen fuel cell), couldn't they have larger batteries for grids? The current size would be great for homes.

That looks suspiciously similar to a standard gas tank size. Generally you make a battery by combining cells - they have a 1-1.5V terminal voltage. The image lower down shows a rack of them in a warehouse. I suspect you'd stack them up to a few hundred volts and plug them into an inverter. I wonder if they require the same balancing as more delicate chemistries.

EnerVenue's website has some claims that imply (but do not state, and remember this is marketing material!) it is much less delicate:

1. No thermal runaway and "phenomenal overcharge, discharge and deep-cycle performance"

2. "Flexible charge and discharge rates"

3. "Vessels can discharge to 100%"

4. Specified charging rate of C/12-C/2 (i.e. can be charged at rates from 1/12 the capacity per hour to 1/2 the capacity per hour)

They do require usage of a tiered BMS though: https://enervenue.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/202...

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#65

Post by cyberax »

gameoverhumans wrote: post #8
jojobas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current electric semis are only good for hauling potato chips (i.e. mostly air) for any distance over 100km. Weight is very very valuable on both passenger cars and commercial trucks. Hauling those extra 300-500kg vs a comparable size sedan comes at a steep cost too, as increasing weight requires stronger/wheels body, wheels, brakes, even engines. There is a huge demand for higher energy density, preferably of a non-…

As I understand it, electric cars are actually surprisingly polluting, which is a consequence of their battery weight and particulates from tires: https://dynomight.net/tires/

Brakepads are not an issue on EVs. They barely use frictional brakes.

My car is at 150000 miles and it's still on the original set of brakepads. Some EVs actually have a problem with that, their brakes are used so infrequently that rotors start to rust. So automakers added firmware that periodically applies frictional brakes.

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#66

Post by RulerOf »

I visited the NASA campus in Cleveland, OH many years back and got to talking to one of the engineers who worked on this tech for the ISS. The batteries they use up there run $10k a piece, but he stressed how rock solid the chemistry and design is.

Nickel hydrogen has incredible endurance, but the part that really struck home with me: they measure the state of charge with a pressure gauge.

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#67

Post by jojobas »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #36
jojobas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current electric semis are only good for hauling potato chips (i.e. mostly air) for any distance over 100km. Weight is very very valuable on both passenger cars and commercial trucks. Hauling those extra 300-500kg vs a comparable size sedan comes at a steep cost too, as increasing weight requires stronger/wheels body, wheels, brakes, even engines. There is a huge demand for higher energy density, preferably of a non-…

Nonsense. There are battery electric trucks in every vehicle class you can name. 200 tonne road trains in Australia, check. Mining trucks, check. Not a problem. There are also multiple electrical class 8 semi's on the road already. Tesla class 8 semis is a good example. But you can also get similar trucks from e.g. Volvo. Long distances buses, school buses, vans, etc. All available right now. As cost of the batteries…

Yeah, check what range Pepsi is getting hauling anything but Lay's.

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#68

Post by danw1979 »

4death4 wrote: post #28
danw1979 wrote: post #12

This sounds great on paper but there’s a couple of questions left hanging: > We take the battery, put it in an open fire, and watch it continue to heat up. What ends up happening is that the pressure above top charge will force the hydrogen back into water. And then we have a release valve designed into the unit so at a predesigned pressure and temperature that will release, and you’ll get a steam vent.” But what abo…

> But what about the hydrogen? Doesn’t it say the hydrogen is vented as H2O?

Re-reading the article, it sounds like maybe the venting happens at some pressure high enough above the point at which H reacts back to H2O that there’s none left ?

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#69

Post by aidenn0 »

hmottestad wrote: post #58

> So far, EnerVenue has been operating a pilot production line that can manufacture 100 megawatt-hours’ worth of batteries per year—and they’ve deployed small-scale test systems. But, says Heinemann, the company already has over 7 GWh, or about 400 million dollars’ worth of purchase orders... We should soon see if this is a viable business then.

> 7 GWh, or about 400 million dollars

This implies a bulk cost of about $57/kWh which is slightly cheaper than present day LFP (the primary competitor for grid-scale battery storage). IMO, it needs to be no more expensive than LFP, because LFP cells can be spec'd for ~8 years and it's hard to get people to invest on timescales longer than ~10 years.

Re: Nickel Hydrogen Batteries by NASA

#70

Post by aidenn0 »

credit_guy wrote: post #51
ralfd wrote: post #43

30 years lifetime sounds great. But doesn't hydrogen diffuse through metal? Can it be contained such a long time?

The use case for this is to charge the battery during the day and discharge it during the night. It is not for seasonal energy storage. There are no batteries that can be used for seasonal storage, nothing comes within a factor of 100 of being economical. But batteries for seasonal storage requires very few cycles, one per year. This battery here can go through many thousands of cycles. If you don't use it for daily…

When they are at full charge, they have H2 at 300PSI. Assuming they spend a significant fraction of a day at full-charge, after 10 years they will have totaled a significant fraction of 10 years at 300PSI.

GP's question is "Will the H2 migrate through the pressure tank after such a long time?"

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