The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression • Hacker News Board

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#61

Post by api » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:18 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #35

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place). The issue is that a sizeable underclass is being created that have no wealth, not least because what wealth they did have has been funnelled to the very wealthy. For example, medical bills. For example student loans. For example zero interest rates with zero wage inflation meaning accommodation cost…

The issue is absolutely supply and demand for houses, otherwise housing would be affordable for more people.

Housing markets are local. Their supply and demand dynamics are local. Affordable housing in Kentucky does not help people in San Francisco or Seattle unless everyone can telework.

Unaffordable housing is a major contributor to inability to build wealth. In most cases it’s no high paying jobs or unaffordable housing, pick one.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#62

Post by Ensorceled » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:18 AM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #40

There are five workers supporting every retiree, and this is still happening. If you are approaching 40, there will be about two workers supporting you when you retire. I’m thinking this is the start of something much bigger.

Yes, this is why the "it's immigration" comments are incredibly naive. Immigration is trying to prop up this system.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#63

Post by throwawaaarrgh » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:19 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #35

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place). The issue is that a sizeable underclass is being created that have no wealth, not least because what wealth they did have has been funnelled to the very wealthy. For example, medical bills. For example student loans. For example zero interest rates with zero wage inflation meaning accommodation cost…

Most Metro areas do not have enough affordable housing. It's well established that local governments cannot build enough new affordable housing, partly because any contractor that bids goes way over the value of a private housing venture.

The idea that there's enough housing but "in the wrong place" is like saying there's plenty of jobs, they're just in third world countries and Scandinavia.

The idea that the solution is "play Robin Hood with the global economy" is literally a fairy tale.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#64

Post by Kretinsky » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:21 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #52

It never ceases to astonish me how the richest country on the planet is still in 'survival mode' where everyone has to justify their claim to, well, anything at all. In Europe (even as it was largely laid waste after WW2), it is understood that we are all together, and simply by existing we have a right to at least a basic level of living. Perhaps part of that is that because communism was so close, for so long, it w…

It's the richest country because everyone is in survival mode and has a strobg pressure to get their head above the water. In socialist euro countries you can go with the flow created by the welfare state.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#65

Post by infairverona » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:23 AM UTC

addicted wrote: post #43

TapWaterBandit wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immigration is clearly an undeniable part of the problem. I am in Australia and when immigration was halted during covid rents declined in many places, often substantially. Now we are full-tilt on immigration again and rents are soaring. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that putting more people in a given area with the same amount of housing will cause the rents to rise.

It was clearly the immigration because there was nothing else going on at the time that could explain the changes.

What a weird way to shot gun an otherwise reasonable argument with the worst example possible.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#66

Post by Ensorceled » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:23 AM UTC

fnimick wrote: post #60

Ensorceled wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the standard conservative "big government" and "young people today don't want to work" rant. > The problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Regulation yes, but it's not the lack of building; we're building like crazy all over North America. Many new homes are "lost" and become second or third homes for the wealthy or airbnb rentals. Regul…

Agreed. We're in this mess because of unregulated capitalism, but sure, removing even more regulations will definitely solve it! (for the people who are fortunate enough to "have a venture" goes unsaid - the rest will be left poor, and they deserve it, for they weren't good / useful enough) There is absolutely an argument to be made here about regulatory capture with respect to zoning laws, parking minimums, etc maki…

It's so disheartening. I have a lot of family who are suffering and they are all blaming the school unions and welfare recipients for all their problems.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#67

Post by Kretinsky » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:23 AM UTC

epistasis wrote: post #34

m000 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they want to screw everyone else again. "We have the means to end homelessness in older adults. By increasing affordable housing for older adults, engaging in targeted prevention efforts, and building off the success of permanent supportive housing, we can make homelessness for older adults rare and brief." Why are homeless baby boomers any more of a problem than entire generations that have been condemned to per…

It's difficult to lump together home-owning yet anti-home-building wealthy boomers with the working boomers who are now becoming homeless. Generational abstractions are unbelievably leaky.

Given that there aren't infinite ressources, shouldn't we prioritize housing families, that prepare the future, rather than the elderly?

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#68

Post by shrimpx » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:23 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #52

It never ceases to astonish me how the richest country on the planet is still in 'survival mode' where everyone has to justify their claim to, well, anything at all. In Europe (even as it was largely laid waste after WW2), it is understood that we are all together, and simply by existing we have a right to at least a basic level of living. Perhaps part of that is that because communism was so close, for so long, it w…

Which Europe? Plenty of destitution, poverty, far-right inclinations, ultra-nationalism and anti-migrant racism in Europe. (Often against migrants from other countries in Europe.)

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#69

Post by api » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:24 AM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #50

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

This is the standard conservative "big government" and "young people today don't want to work" rant. > The problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Regulation yes, but it's not the lack of building; we're building like crazy all over North America. Many new homes are "lost" and become second or third homes for the wealthy or airbnb rentals. Regul…

> Regulations are not building for high capacity, preferring to sprawl and build monster homes that house few, wealthier people.

So you’re saying regulations are blocking new home construction. Got it.

What you describe is exactly what people mean when they say you “can’t build housing.” In reality you kind of can but only a few homes and only at the very high end. You can only build at the high end because of density limits and zoning and also because complicated regulations and battles with NIMBYs increase costs. When the cost to build is high only big luxury homes can be profitable. Lower margin per unit affordable homes and apartments can’t be funded.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#70

Post by robertlagrant » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 11:24 AM UTC

somewhereoutth wrote: post #35

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place). The issue is that a sizeable underclass is being created that have no wealth, not least because what wealth they did have has been funnelled to the very wealthy. For example, medical bills. For example student loans. For example zero interest rates with zero wage inflation meaning accommodation cost…

> The issue is not supply and demand for houses - there are plenty enough to go around (though often in the wrong place).

This drives prices up, though. Not just price of homes, but, similarly to fuel, prices of almost everything. Not many people are in the correct stage of life to evenly distribute themselves across the US's geography.

> For example, medical bills. For example student loans.

I doubt the baby boomers have student loan debt. They existed in a time long before the current university bureaucratic infrastructure was put in place and drove up costs (and thus prices), and they were far less likely to get a degree with no job prospects. Medical bills, sure, but they have always been around.

> The solution is to address wealth inequality. This means taking wealth away from those who have amassed too much, and returning it to those who had it stolen from them.

You have to be aware of all the massive, country-breaking problems this approach all but guarantees. We need a system that works, not a system that doesn't work with a heavy-handed thumb on the scale.

The actual obvious candidate is not punishing people who create so much value they have a load of money, because that value is worth that money, and without it we might be stuffed. The big reasons are: fuel prices, which are actually driving inflation, the post-Covid economic impact, and investing giant sums in defending Ukraine's border. You could say land and medical legislation give the worst of both worlds in those sectors, probably less efficient than public running or private markets.

You might say all of those things are worth it. But it's silly to just assume we can raid piggy banks on an ongoing basis, even if you had no moral issue with it.