It's okay to make something nobody wants • Hacker News Board

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#61

Post by matkoniecz » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:06 AM UTC

yieldcrv wrote: post #32

Aeolun wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have that feeling trying to improve dev practices in a shop that had none. Years of effort and we’re barely at the point my previous place was at before I even started there.

Why care? The only reason I point stuff out at my current company is because I don't want to get on a performance improvement plan because of their dumb work forecasting solutions

I can imagine caring about something like that if it was impending something important (say, it was about developing software that is part of court system/curing cancer/doing something that I consider personally important).

Or they are paid specifically for that, or they just spend they work hours on that.

Hopefully they are not spending unpaid overtime on that (unless they consciously volunteer to help with something important, not with widget marketing)

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#62

Post by matkoniecz » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:10 AM UTC

efitz wrote: post #6

Lately i have been wondering about the weird projects that people make- the “I built a web application framework in brainfuck” or “I built a text based bitmap image editor” or “I loaded an LLM on a Speak’n’Spell” kind of projects (I made up all of those but see similar on HN every day). I understand passion projects and the article hints that might be the reason, but I just don’t understand why people would spend suc…

1) they do it as a hobby (and often it may be more productive than watching soccer or playing computer games or binge drinking)

2) they do this to explore/test technology XYZ

3) they are so talented and experienced that it does not require enormous amount of time

4) for promotion, bragging rights

5) some combination of above

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#63

Post by Gigachad » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:12 AM UTC

fourthark wrote: post #13

zibzob wrote: post #4

I like the message, but I feel like the article doesn't support the headline. Instead, it seems to be saying that you should make something that you are passionate about, and in return other people will want it. I have not found that to be true personally, although I would like for it to be true.

Seems like his point is the inverse: if you don't want it, how will anyone else?

I don't think any software I have been paid to work on has been something I personally want, but there sure are a lot of companies that want it.

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#64

Post by Gigachad » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:15 AM UTC

whartung wrote: post #10

Animats wrote: post #2

"I think it’s okay to make something that nobody wants. All you need to do is to make sure you’ve fully expressed your emotions in this product." Having hobbies is fine, but it's not a business model.

A fellow I knew would build boats. Sailboats. I don’t know much about boats but I’d say that these were something like 25-30 foot boats. These were not dinghies. He started from raw plans, build the hull ribs, layer on the fiberglass for the hull (he bought his resin in 50 gallon drums). Now, of course, he has to sand and finish the fiberglass. Once he got to that point, he’d build a rig around the hull out of wood t…

Software is a winner takes all market mostly. The best software of its kind captures almost all of the users. While making physical items is not. There will be loads of other people better than you, but it doesn't really matter because those other people will be sold out / too expensive / not local.

So even if you are far less talented than most, you'll still find a good market at the right price.

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#65

Post by greffer » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:17 AM UTC

> you create something not because “I think they might need this,” but because “I find this so fucking interesting.”

This is a fantastic insight.

I also find that it's what often gets overlooked in open source projects that start as somebody doing something on the side as a hobby. Don't create and publish open source projects to please others. Build something that you like to have yourself. When publishing it, do it as an invitation to others to try it out and perhaps give you feedback (crowdsourcing bug triage and extension ideas), not to make others happy. The trap is that others will start feeling entitled, start demanding things, and if you give in, you violate the insight I quoted above. And if you start losing interest, don't cling on to the project, but be open to some other maintainer adopting it. Don't waste your time maintaining something you are not internally interested in.

The same is true also for users of open source projects. Be aware that whoever did this and published it for you to use did so originally because they like it and want to use it themselves. You can't demand things from somebody like that. If you do, you actually make it more likely that they lose interest.

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#66

Post by timrobinson333 » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:21 AM UTC

ozim wrote: post #59

spencerflem wrote: post #12

That's not making something nobody wants - its making something one person wants a lot :) On a less happy note, there are definitely jobs I've had where I felt like nobody wanted what I was making and its kind of miserable

That is basically 90% of business line software that is built to support workflows and processes. Employees don’t want the process, company wants process. Everyone building these is miserable and usually requirements are to actively make user lives miserable instead of easier.

Maybe I've been exceptionally lucky (although I've been very conscious to only work for SMEs which I think has a lot to do with it), but I always try really hard to figure out what the user/customer is actually trying to achieve, then what's the best way to get there using the resources available, regardless of any incumbent processes or strategy. To my mind this is the best of both worlds - I've got the satisfaction of making something great and the customer gets their life made easier.

As I've gone through my career I've focused less and less on some specific language or technology stack that is the flavour of the day, and I get my satisfaction from engineering a robust solution from whatever is the must appropriate technology in that specific case.

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#67

Post by sph » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:24 AM UTC

nullcipher wrote: post #57

fourthark wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like his point is the inverse: if you don't want it, how will anyone else?

there's plenty of people who cook for others when they don't like it themselves? like meat, eggs, seafood etc.

The product of a chef is the cooking, not the cooked product itself.

I often buy better ingredients than what's found at any restaurant, but I pay to sit at one because they're prepared, cooked and taste better when done by a professional.

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#68

Post by DonHopkins » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:26 AM UTC

nullandvoid wrote: post #48

"A life well lived is a series of personal obsessions shared without expectation of an audience." Source - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34034857

The Church of the Subgenius has the concept of the "Short Duration Personal Savior" (ShorDurPerSav):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22518739

DonHopkins on March 8, 2020 | prev | next [–]

I've seen people on hn describe themselves as "serial specialists". (However, nobody admits to being a "parallel generalist".)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337342

>I'm a generalist too, or as someone else put it - a serial specialist. You could just stagnate until you retire. That's basically what I'm doing, but for slightly different reasons.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22335697

>Something i learned about myself a little bit farther in was that I wasn’t a generalist so much as I was a serial specialist (once you haven’t touched something you used the be good at for seven years, can you still claim to be good at it? Turns out I can’t).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4317080

>Going for knowledge just because it sounds cool isn't going to be a motivator strong enough for success. Find stuff you're interested in and dive into those. The way to become a well-rounded person is to become obsessive in many things (possibly not simultaneously) that are unusual in some way. In fact, learning anything will feel like specialization, and in fact being a serial specialist is probably the most viable way to become a "Renaissance man" today.

>Note that the first thing that came to my mind when I read your post was: "To be a true Renaissance man, you need to have been dead for 400 years". I won't write it here :)

The Church of the Subgenius has a similar concept called the "Short Duration Personal Savior" (or ShorDurPerSav, the proper Tibetian term):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10045688

>Wow; just wow. Thank you for filling that gaping hole in my education with Dick Tuck [1] [2]! My new short duration personal savior [2].

Speaking of favorite ShorDurPerSavs: John Gage [4], who was Sun Microsystem's "Science Officer" and turned the Sun logo 45 degrees on its corner, had the honor of serving his country on Nixon's enemies list [5] -- a distinguished achievement that L. Ron Hubbard falsely claimed about himself!

"I didn't hide what I did. I never tried to be malicious. It's just the difference between altering fortune cookies to make a candidate look funny and altering State Department cables to make it look as if a former President were a murderer." --Dick Tuck on the difference between himself and Nixon's Watergate operatives.

"The people have spoken, the bastards." --Dick Tuck's concession speech following his loss in the 1966 California State Senate election.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Tuck

[2] http://hoaxes.org/tuck.html

[3] http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/goods/shordurpersavs/X0012_...

[4] http://www.zdnet.com/article/suns-gage-looks-ahead/

[5] http://www.enemieslist.info/enemy.php?ID=463

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/goods/shordurpersavs/X0012_...

>From: Purple Kitty

>-= SHORT DURATION PERSONAL SAVIORS - A LESSON =-

>BEGINNER LEVEL - CLEARED FOR ALL BOBBIES - BEGINNER LEVEL - CLEARED FOR

>Shockingly, some Bobbies are still unclear as to what a Short Duration Personal Savior is. The concept of the Short Duration Personal Savior (or ShorDurPerSav, the proper Tibetian term) is a new one-- traditional religions tend to emphasize "unwavering servitude" over convenience. But is absolute devotion to one savior always best? Buddha is a wonderful role model for certain aspects of life, but when that po'bucker shoves you out of the way as he walks by, don't you wish that you worshipped George Foreman instead, if only for the next few minutes?

>Well, you can! The Church of the SubGenius heartily endorses the concept of disposable saviors, or ShorDurPerSavs. Choose your messiah to fit the situation. If peace and compassion are what you need right now, follow the teachings of Gandhi. Later, when you need to cut a business deal, emulate the wisdom of Sam Walton. When you need a witty remark on the spot, let Samuel Clemens into your heart to inspire you. And when you need Slack in your life, sell your soul to "Bob".

>"Bob" is the most frequently invoked of our infinitely varied Short Duration Personal Saviors, with good reason. He has Slack--he IS Slack. He symbolizes the "easy life", where one follows the Path of Least Resistance and gains Slack effortlessly. But no one is expected to worship "Bob" 24/7! If you're trying to get that PC to work, choosing "Bob" as your ShorDurPerSav will hinder you far more than helping you! "Bob" couldn't use a PC if he wanted to (though he sold more of them last year than IBM and Packard Bell put together)! Read through Stephen Levy's _Hackers_ and let the TMRC be your ShorDurPerSavs! There ARE no limits!

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#69

Post by pydry » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:29 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #22

spencerflem wrote: post #12

That's not making something nobody wants - its making something one person wants a lot :) On a less happy note, there are definitely jobs I've had where I felt like nobody wanted what I was making and its kind of miserable

I have that feeling trying to improve dev practices in a shop that had none. Years of effort and we’re barely at the point my previous place was at before I even started there.

It's interesting how many companies are so utterly uninterested in investing in speeding up development but so keen on measuring it.

Re: It's okay to make something nobody wants

#70

Post by sentimentscan » Sat, Sep 23, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

tempestn wrote: post #52

yieldcrv wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why care? The only reason I point stuff out at my current company is because I don't want to get on a performance improvement plan because of their dumb work forecasting solutions

Caring about your work and work environment can make time spent working a lot more fulfilling. Which isn't to say every company or every manager inspires such sentiment, but if you can find a way to care about your work, and/or find work that you care about, it's definitely more pleasant than just doing the minimum to collect pay.

Nothing is worse then when you care, and apparently all the code written/test/work done 3 months by team goes straight to the trash, no explanation. Simply some exec in this large thought that it should go to trash, couldn't even give me a reason. I quickly quit after that.