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Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

newsroom.toyota.eu

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Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#61
post #59
post #2

1000 km battery, 10 minute charge? I'm suspicious for many reasons. If they can't build their prime hybrids — or even supply gas Siennas in Canada — I'm not very confident about their manufacturing in the mid-term. I hope I'm wrong.

For a 150 kWh battery, 10 minute charge to go from 10% to 80% SoC means charging at 600 kW or so. It would be pretty insane.

Not feasible on even 240 Volt AC at all, would have to be high voltage all the way to the charger as the cabling is unworkable. Its completely impractical otherwise and its going to require big changes to the grid.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#62

Am I parsing this properly? 2 months ago, Toyota pushed back the release of their solid state batteries to 2026. Now it'll be 2027-2028? Maybe we'll get in-car cold fusion first.

Toyota has absolutely nothing for the EV age having bet the house on hydrogen and failing that just ICE. Now they are scrambling and making promises on research when they have nothing remotely to suggest they can do what they are promising, not even a prototype.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#63
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen has a higher energy density by volume compared to a li-ion battery. People really need to check their fact here.

Hydrogen is a gas, which expands or compresses to fill all available space, so its density varies. People really need to check their understanding of physics here.

If you're assuming it is compressed, to say 700 bar, then it would have a higher volumetric density.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#64
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen is a gas, which expands or compresses to fill all available space, so its density varies. People really need to check their understanding of physics here.

I would assume, but perhaps be wrong, that it would be liquid Hydrogen pumped into a vehicle's tank, and much like a tank of propane, the liquid expands back into a gas as pressure decreases (due to consumption). Hydrogen vehicles have the advantage of being refillable in minutes, much like petrol based vehicles - yet the only byproduct is water vapor, making them completely environmentally friendly. Hydrogen is also…

Hydrogen in a car would be gas the whole time. It is just compressed high enough that the tanks can fit in a car.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#65
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen is a gas, which expands or compresses to fill all available space, so its density varies. People really need to check their understanding of physics here.

I would assume, but perhaps be wrong, that it would be liquid Hydrogen pumped into a vehicle's tank, and much like a tank of propane, the liquid expands back into a gas as pressure decreases (due to consumption). Hydrogen vehicles have the advantage of being refillable in minutes, much like petrol based vehicles - yet the only byproduct is water vapor, making them completely environmentally friendly. Hydrogen is also…

For a direct answer, this[1] is a good starting point discussing the difficulties with hydrogen (as a medium generally).

Hydrogen fuel cell vs combustion isn’t a settled issue. Combustion is more familiar but Carnot Efficiency is going to reduce range (even further). Fuel cells are more efficient but more expensive. Anything with hydrogen needs to worry about embrittlement. It’s also very difficult to contain so the GWP of 11.6 shouldn’t be overlooked; methane is much easier to manage and still our natural gas infrastructure leaks all over the place.

The electrification of industrial processes have allowed for increasingly-cheaper electric motors to operate efficiently at any size, from toy RC cars to massive (diesel) electric trains.

Even barring any energy density breakthroughs, electrification with batteries for light duty applications seems inevitable. Having a gigantic battery (compared to residential electrical use) as backup is quite useful. Virtual power plants [2] and stationary deployment of secondhand battery cells should lessen the substantial cost of vehicle batteries — we’re at least a decade away from EV trade-ins being common outside of Norway (and maybe China).

For heavy duty applications, we have an existing solution that works fairly well. We’re just going to end up reinventing catenaries for this era [2]. The operational challenges of maintaining catenary wire systems (especially with shared electric right of ways) is just easier than overcoming the chemistry. That is of course, unless we get in our own way [4].

—-

[1] https://www.thechemicalengineer.com/features/the-unbearable-....

[2] https://liftoff.energy.gov/vpp/

[3] https://www.carscoops.com/2021/10/germany-is-already-testing...

[4] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-08-347r

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#66
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a 150 kWh battery, 10 minute charge to go from 10% to 80% SoC means charging at 600 kW or so. It would be pretty insane.

Not feasible on even 240 Volt AC at all, would have to be high voltage all the way to the charger as the cabling is unworkable. Its completely impractical otherwise and its going to require big changes to the grid.

DC fast chargers are already 400V or 800V, so we’ve long since crossed the limits of AC charging at home.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#67

Am I parsing this properly? 2 months ago, Toyota pushed back the release of their solid state batteries to 2026. Now it'll be 2027-2028? Maybe we'll get in-car cold fusion first.

Toyota has absolutely nothing for the EV age having bet the house on hydrogen and failing that just ICE. Now they are scrambling and making promises on research when they have nothing remotely to suggest they can do what they are promising, not even a prototype.

It takes no effort to make an EV. They are the simplest type of car imaginable. They even pre-date ICE cars.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#68

I see way too many Toyota battery articles for a company that can barely put out an EV. They're all promises... in the future, they swear they'll beat everyone, but they just released a Lexus EV at $60k with 196mi range and 5sec 0-60.

> 5sec 0-60. When did this become a metric that mattered to any normal person? Do you even know the 0-60 of your car? Do you realize how quick 5 second is to 60mph? Most sports cars of a generation ago couldn't touch that. Why do you feel it needs to be faster? It's plain dangerous to inexperienced drivers.

It matters when your competitor sells cheaper product accelerating almost twice as fast and offering almost twice the range. It makes you look like a huge scammer.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk what the 0-60 of my leaf is but I beat every one off the line when I want to. It makes me far more comfortable on the freeway to get all the power I want on demand to quickly and safely make a maneuver. I would never have considered it before owning an EV, but now that I have one, I'll definitely be considerate of it in my next EV purchase. Previously I had only had crappy used ICE vehicles, and the acceleration…

Depends on the year, it used to be around 11s, latest models brought it down to 8-7 seconds. Normal ICE cars are in the 12-18s range, sometimes 5s is ridiculously fast and that kind of acceleration should _never_ be used in the middle of traffic or city roads.

You might want to check your facts. The 2022 Honda Odyssey minivan (not a small vehicle) has 0-60 of 6.5s.

Re: Toyota’s advanced battery technology roadmap

#70

I see way too many Toyota battery articles for a company that can barely put out an EV. They're all promises... in the future, they swear they'll beat everyone, but they just released a Lexus EV at $60k with 196mi range and 5sec 0-60.

They were supposed to have solid state battery cars and vehicles for the Tokyo Olympics. It was obvious that wasn't going to happen and it didn't. Toyota has been completely asleep at the switch for EVs which is baffling since they pioneered the hybrid electric vehicle. What's really strange is after having such a huge lead and hybrid electric vehicle, they have really crawled behind other manufacturers and producing…

It takes zero effort to make an EV. They are incredibly simple vehicles.

People really need to let go of their EV fanboyism (and likely that includes Tesla fanboyism). In reality, if EVs were the future, Toyota would start making vast numbers of them in just a few years.

The real issue is that BEVs are not cost effective right now, and show no sign of that happening anytime soon. Until then, PHEVs and hybrids make a lot of sense.

PS: A lot of these Chinese EV makers are scam companies propped up by the Chinese government. They have no ability beyond shoving giant batteries into generic chassis.

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