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Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#61

Post by yrro »

robnado wrote: post #59
yrro wrote: post #2

Car size should be regulated and a maximum should be enforced. Pavement parking (and other antisocial forms of parking) should also be banned. In the UK, local authorities are in charge of parking enforcement. In Oxford they largely don't bother: I see vehicles parked on yellow lines every day. I can't fathom why, this is an opportunity to raise revenue!

I feel that all those people who talk about reducing car size and use probably don’t have a family. I have twin 6 month olds and the only cars we currently use is the Toyota Corolla from a local car sharing service. Two car seats in the back leave basically just enough room between for my wife to fit sideways inside the middle seat. She can’t stay in there for longer than a few minutes and if we get in a car accident…

All valid problems. The car lobby (and their pet politicians) aren't going to do anything to fix it though. And we will all have to live with the consequences.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#62

Post by mytailorisrich »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #58
mytailorisrich wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everyone cycles you need a cycle lane at least the size of a car lane, and then you still need space for the bus, and of course you still need to accomodate vans, taxis, and emergency vehicles... There is no silver bullet. Adding decent cycle lanes means wider roads, and there's nothing wrong with that. > Building roads just increases congestion through induced demand. How do you propose to build new housing estat…

> If everyone cycles you need a cycle lane at least the size of a car lane No you don't - bikes and scooters take up far less room than the same person being sat alone in their car. The increased throughput of people would drastically improve the efficiency of the road. Also, if the people choose active travel instead of driving, then you also remove a large number of cars from the road and also reduce congestion for…

You clearly don't have experience with heavy cycle traffic. Bikes do take much less space than cars, but when there are many of them you do need enough space to accomodate them and the width of a car lane is not luxury and is needed, and still does improve efficiency of the road. It's that way in China and in bike-heavy places like Copenhagen.

It's not possible to solve problems by refusing to acknowledge reality. We need pragmatism.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#63

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #62
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone cycles you need a cycle lane at least the size of a car lane No you don't - bikes and scooters take up far less room than the same person being sat alone in their car. The increased throughput of people would drastically improve the efficiency of the road. Also, if the people choose active travel instead of driving, then you also remove a large number of cars from the road and also reduce congestion for…

You clearly don't have experience with heavy cycle traffic. Bikes do take much less space than cars, but when there are many of them you do need enough space to accomodate them and the width of a car lane is not luxury and is needed, and still does improve efficiency of the road. It's that way in China and in bike-heavy places like Copenhagen. It's not possible to solve problems by refusing to acknowledge reality. We…

I've cycled around Copenhagen and the vast majority of cycle lanes are smaller than a car sized lane.

We should be copying the infrastructure designs of European cities that have been successful at getting people onto bikes etc. (Although not the "kissing bridge" as that's a stupid design for bikes). I thought you were pushing the idea of building as many roads as possible - that's clearly not pragmatic.

The other very noticeable aspect to travel around Copenhagen is that they have excellent public transport. It's incredible to see the number of bikes they manage to squeeze onto their trains during busy times.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#64

Post by monooso »

eptcyka wrote: post #46
monooso wrote: post #27

> Car designer Chris Longmore... blames safety legislation for the dramatic increase in size since the 1990s. This doesn't stand up to scrutiny. For example, the 2022 Toyota Aygo X has a 4 star NCAP safety rating (out of a possible 5) [1], and is about the same size as the original 1970s VW Golf [2]. [1] https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/Toyota/Aygo%20X/46259 [2] https://www.automobiledimension.com/model/toyota/ayg…

Cars are crash tested against one-another, not against a benchmark car. This means that the tiny Aygo-X was crash tested with another Aygo-X, not with a Ford "danger" Ranger or a Range Rover or a Juke.

Do you mean other cars in the same class?

Either way, it undermines the statement that the increase in car size is primarily due to new legislation which makes it impossible to build a small, safe car.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#65

Post by sofixa »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #12
rob74 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (and tax subsidies) is the reason behind the proliferation of large plug-in-hybrid SUVs - being a plug-in hybrid lowers CO2 emissions (at least on paper), but in practice many/most owners will never actually charge the car, so the CO2 emissions will be even more unrealistic than they already are.

This doesn’t address needlessly large EVs that damage roads and are a threat to pedestrians and bicyclists. These larger EVs are also inefficient use of battery cells than they’d be in smaller vehicles. Would love to see more Mini/Smart car EVs

> Would love to see more Mini/Smart car EVs

The Renault Zoe was a best seller in some countries because it's a great city car. Sadly Renault have cut back production due to diminishing margins due to supply chain issues (official version), which is a shame. There's also the Fiat 500 EV.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#66

Post by yrro »

EliRivers wrote: post #25

The current annual car tax in the UK is a freaky thing. For cars registered before March 2001, it's a payment based on engine size (smaller or larger than 1.55 litres); couldn't tell if that's aimed at perceived wealth, pollution, or just leftover because that's how it was back when those cars were new. March 2001 to March 2017, it's a payment based on CO2 emissions. Pollution based. April 2017 to present day, it's a…

Apparently we can't do anything to change how existing vehicles are taxed on grounds of fairness.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#67

Post by eptcyka »

monooso wrote: post #64
eptcyka wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are crash tested against one-another, not against a benchmark car. This means that the tiny Aygo-X was crash tested with another Aygo-X, not with a Ford "danger" Ranger or a Range Rover or a Juke.

Do you mean other cars in the same class? Either way, it undermines the statement that the increase in car size is primarily due to new legislation which makes it impossible to build a small, safe car.

No, I mean the car is crash tested against itself. And not against cars in the same class or a variety of cars that can be encountered on the road.

I agree that small cars can be made to be safe nominally, but one cannot argue with the mass component of the kinetic energy equation. I say this as someone who drives a car that weighs slightly above a ton, and I'm well aware that I'd likely be on the losing end of any collision with another vehichle on the road.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#68

Post by yrro »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #47
vkoskiv wrote: post #10

AFAIK in many countries there is also the double whammy of heavy electric cars eroding the roadways a lot more, but not paying for the increased maintenance costs with petrol tax.

In the UK, road maintenance is paid for by income tax, though reduced fuel duty will affect public finances. However, fuel duty has been frozen for a number of years, so it doesn't look like the Tories want to stop people sitting in cars. The road damage from EVs hardly matters compared to HGVs, buses and the biggest vehicles. Road damage is roughly proportional to the fourth power of weight, so cars aren't responsib…

> road maintenance is paid for by income tax

Isn't it funded through general taxation? Income tax, NI, dividend tax, duties, capital gains tax, VAT and so on all go into one pot out of which comes some money for the highways agency (who maintain major roads) and local authorities (who maintain minor roads).

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#69

Post by robnado »

yrro wrote: post #61
robnado wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that all those people who talk about reducing car size and use probably don’t have a family. I have twin 6 month olds and the only cars we currently use is the Toyota Corolla from a local car sharing service. Two car seats in the back leave basically just enough room between for my wife to fit sideways inside the middle seat. She can’t stay in there for longer than a few minutes and if we get in a car accident…

All valid problems. The car lobby (and their pet politicians) aren't going to do anything to fix it though. And we will all have to live with the consequences.

Agreed, instead of addressing any of the problems that push people to buy big gas guzzlers, they leverage those problems to divide the population. If you look, you will see these wedge issues everywhere. We won't get anywhere at addressing any pressing issues in our society if we let the medias keep dividing us.

Re: Britain's roads can't keep up with our cars

#70

Post by hotpotamus »

robnado wrote: post #59
yrro wrote: post #2

Car size should be regulated and a maximum should be enforced. Pavement parking (and other antisocial forms of parking) should also be banned. In the UK, local authorities are in charge of parking enforcement. In Oxford they largely don't bother: I see vehicles parked on yellow lines every day. I can't fathom why, this is an opportunity to raise revenue!

I feel that all those people who talk about reducing car size and use probably don’t have a family. I have twin 6 month olds and the only cars we currently use is the Toyota Corolla from a local car sharing service. Two car seats in the back leave basically just enough room between for my wife to fit sideways inside the middle seat. She can’t stay in there for longer than a few minutes and if we get in a car accident…

Isn't the answer to this a minivan?
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