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French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

france24.com

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Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#61

Post by contravariant »

kaba0 wrote: post #46
contravariant wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the limit? Because it sounds like a lot, it's like hitting someone with a tennis ball every second. (unless of course I'm misunderstanding the definition)

Not sure how you calculated that, but it’s more like standing beneath a quite strong LED lamp (~300W for around 80 kilos). The reason it is relatively easy to surpass the limit in a phone is that you use it from quite close, and the energy density decreases exponentially with distance.

I remember a fast tennis ball being something around 100J.

So something like 300W for a human body seems like quite a bit of energy. But maybe it's not like poison where it's maximum amount per kilogram bodyweight, but it's more like the maximum for any particular kilogram of tissue.

But even when pelting someone with uniform light rather than physical objects, a 300W IR lamp would be pretty noticeably warm I think.

Anyway it was more than I thought. I was expecting some figure that could easily be dismissed as 'impossible to cause any physical effect, let alone harm'.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#62

Post by SigmundA »

contravariant wrote: post #42
sebstefan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sun has ionizing radiations, this doesn't Weird that we're regulating for 4W/kg of non-ionizing radiations

Is that the limit? Because it sounds like a lot, it's like hitting someone with a tennis ball every second. (unless of course I'm misunderstanding the definition)

Its 4w/kg averaged over 10g of mass receiving the highest absorption, so if the 10g of tissue near the phone gets 0.04 watts its 4w/kg but only 0.04 joules per second requiring 100 seconds to receive 4 joules.

Cellphone don't put out 4 watts let alone 4 watts per kilogram of a human full human, they might hit 4 watts per kilogram if you are only looking at a small amount of flesh near the phone which is what SAR looks at.

Its like determining CPU performance by looking at perf per watt just because has a high perf per watt does not mean its fast or faster than a much larger CPU.

For instance dancing is around 5 wh/kg for your whole body more than actually getting hit with a tennis ball every second!

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#63

Post by doloputer »

BenjiWiebe wrote: post #58
sebstefan wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of heat, 4 joules would heat 27g of water (the weight of a ballsack) by 0.14°C Maybe that's why

0.14C/second, right?

No, total.

Watts are per second, Joules are total energy (watts * seconds). 4 Watts would be per-second.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#64

Post by RugnirViking »

argiopetech wrote: post #52
RugnirViking wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yes? Can you imagine working on a hot building site for 8+ with no sun shelter provided or even allowed onsite? a simple gazebo is a godsend, and very cheap for employers to provide, its no surprise something like that would be regulated. Heat exhaustion and skin cancer are common in those kinds of industries.

If you can find a way for e.g., roofers to work in the shade, in sure you'd be handsomely compensated. Most of the building trades work in the sun by default.

it's not (necessarily) about working in the shade all the time, but having some shade available for breaks etc.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#65

Post by NavinF »

contravariant wrote: post #61
kaba0 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you calculated that, but it’s more like standing beneath a quite strong LED lamp (~300W for around 80 kilos). The reason it is relatively easy to surpass the limit in a phone is that you use it from quite close, and the energy density decreases exponentially with distance.

I remember a fast tennis ball being something around 100J. So something like 300W for a human body seems like quite a bit of energy. But maybe it's not like poison where it's maximum amount per kilogram bodyweight, but it's more like the maximum for any particular kilogram of tissue. But even when pelting someone with uniform light rather than physical objects, a 300W IR lamp would be pretty noticeably warm I think.…

Humans are watercooled so we can dissipate small amounts of heat with zero side effects. It's all about temperature. You can easily get an RF burn[0] if you climb a cell tower and get extremely close to the antenna, but nothing happens if you hold a wifi router or phone that's transmitting at max power

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_burn

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#66

Post by Fradow »

saiya-jin wrote: post #9
yanellena wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phone doesn't meet the regulations which means it can't be sold. Whether they're good regulations or not is another matter.

I wonder why it took them 3 years to find out, I thought these radiation tests are pretty basic these days due to cancer scares some decade and half (?) ago. I think gsmarena publishes similar values in their summary pages, but maybe its just copy paste from release material.

This was explained on French news: those radiation levels can vary with a software update. It's likely they were compliant before and a software update changed that.

Which also means the fix can be a software update. That was (according to the news) the likely way this would be resolved.

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#67

Post by PetitPrince »

RugnirViking wrote: post #38
PetitPrince wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Next they'll issue an order to halt sunrise and the subsequent 1000W/m^2 of electromagnetic radiation It's not halting sunrise but there's a directive[1] that basically says (amongst other) "don't work under the sun without protection". [1] Amended proposal for a Council Directive on the minimum Health and Safety requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks arising from physical agents — Individual D…

well yes? Can you imagine working on a hot building site for 8+ with no sun shelter provided or even allowed onsite? a simple gazebo is a godsend, and very cheap for employers to provide, its no surprise something like that would be regulated. Heat exhaustion and skin cancer are common in those kinds of industries.

It was just me trying to be a wiseass by reaction to OP argument that I felt like "omg next they'll want to regulate the sun!!11" by answered "yes actually yes, there is a regulation about the sun".

Re: French regulators order Apple to halt sales of the iPhone 12

#68

Post by wnoise »

kaba0 wrote: post #46
contravariant wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the limit? Because it sounds like a lot, it's like hitting someone with a tennis ball every second. (unless of course I'm misunderstanding the definition)

Not sure how you calculated that, but it’s more like standing beneath a quite strong LED lamp (~300W for around 80 kilos). The reason it is relatively easy to surpass the limit in a phone is that you use it from quite close, and the energy density decreases exponentially with distance.

*geometrically
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