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A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

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Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#61

After having spent a ridiculous amount of effort to get LLMs to work, I am certain they are simply predicting the next token. If LLMs actually could reason, there is a much much wider set of applications where they would be actively used. The term “hallucination” does us all an injustice by propagating the idea of an anthropomorphized LLMs. Everything an LLM does is a hallucination. You and me can make out valid patt…

All the whole damn universe does is move from the configuration at time t to the one at t+1. You cannot deduce from this whether the universe contains reasoning or not. We know from experience that it does, but a universe that doesn't seems possible.

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#62

After having spent a ridiculous amount of effort to get LLMs to work, I am certain they are simply predicting the next token. If LLMs actually could reason, there is a much much wider set of applications where they would be actively used. The term “hallucination” does us all an injustice by propagating the idea of an anthropomorphized LLMs. Everything an LLM does is a hallucination. You and me can make out valid patt…

Wow, where do I even start? The statement boils down a fascinating, nuanced field into an oversimplification that doesn't do justice to the complexities of machine learning, natural language processing, or, you know, human cognition for that matter!

Let's talk about "predicting the next token." Sure, that's the technical framework, but what happens within that prediction is an intricate dance of probabilities, patterns, and weighted connections that come together to form something that can assist, inform, and sometimes even entertain. There's a vast landscape of difference between a machine that predicts the next word in a sentence and a machine that can draft an entire poem, answer a complicated question, or simulate conversation in a way that can sometimes pass for human thought.

Is it reasoning in the way humans do? No. But to say that LLMs are "simply" predicting the next token is like saying a car is "simply" a collection of nuts and bolts that move in a certain way. It's true, but it's missing the whole picture. Just think about the implications! If this was as trivial as "predicting the next token," then why aren't we seeing this level of application everywhere?

As for the term "hallucination," I get it. It's a bit anthropomorphic, sure, but language always is. We use human-centric language to describe lots of things that aren't human. We say economies are "healthy" or "sick," we say a defense in football is "stalwart." Is it perfect? No. But it gives people a way to discuss and think about complex topics, including this one. And guess what, complex discussions are how progress happens!

The point about infinite data is intriguing, but let's not go off the rails here. The question isn't whether an LLM would ever "need" to calculate; it's whether the way it calculates could ever truly mimic human thought or reasoning. That's a long road we're still traveling down. But here's the kicker: just because we're not there yet doesn't mean the work that's been done is insignificant or simplistic.

Emergent properties becoming "non-emergent" the more you interact with an LLM? That's the point! The more you use these systems, the more you understand their capabilities and limitations, and the better you can leverage them for tasks that are useful, interesting, or revealing.

So, yeah, let's not box in what is one of the most dynamic, evolving fields right now with a one-liner that's as limiting as it is dismissive.

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we say ChatGPT or its future versions would be like an instantiation of the Boltzmann Brain concept if it has internal qualia? The "brain" comes alive with the rich structure only to disappear after the chat session is over.

are our real brains boltzmann brains that have internal qualia and come alive with the rich structure only to lose it when we die

So, the reason why a Boltzmann brain would vanish almost instantly is because the longer it is to survive the more support structures it would need, a larger part of the local environment would have to be compatible with a longer existence, and all that makes it less likely for the fluctuation yielding such an outcome to have occurred.

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans, too, would likely be nearly stateless if we took a point-in-time snapshot of them and repeatedly simulated them from that point on various short (4000ms, similar to 4000 tokens) sequences of nerve impulses. Nevertheless the human would be acting intentionally (for in-distribution impulse patterns) for the brief period of simulation. Fine-tuning and RLHF seem to impart more intentionality to the pure stateless…

No.

I may be missing something, but I'm willing to bet it's just you. I had the same line of reasoning as him and your snarky comment without explanation is unwelcome here. I like discourse. Not emotional knee jerk reactions or whatever it is that caused you to reply like that. If there is something fundamentally wrong, and obviously so with his line of reasoning, do let me know.

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#65
post #34
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primarily, they are pure functions that accept a sequence of tokens and return the next token. The model itself is stateless, and it doesn't seem right to me to ascribe "intent" to a stateless function. Even if the function is capable of modeling certain aspects of chess. I have two arguments against. One, you could argue that state is transferred between the layers. It may be inelegant for each chain of state tran…

That's a great way of looking at it. Comparing model weights to our brains and how we process input, you could imagine model weights as a brain frozen at time t=0. The prompt tokens are the sensory input, and the generation parameters are like twists to how the neurons pass information to each other. The token context window is like the capacity of one's working memory. At the conclusion of the last layer of processi…

Your thoughts are just prompts to DeusGPT

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#66
post #13
post #9

I'm not sure the definition of "intention" the article suggests is a useful one. He tries to make it sound like he's being conservative: > That is, we should ascribe intentions to a system if and only if it helps to predict and explain the behaviour of the system. Whether it really has intentions beyond this is not a question I am attempting to answer (and I think that it is probably not determinate in any case). And…

Ascribing human properties to computers and software has always seemed very bizarre to me. I always assume people are confused when they do that. There is no meaningful intersection between biology, intelligence, and computers but people constantly keep trying to imbue electromagnetic signal processors with human/biological qualities very much like how children attribute souls to teddy bears. Computers are mechanical…

Try having a human without electromagnetic first principles.

In fact, anything really.

But really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite#Human_brain

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#67
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are our real brains boltzmann brains that have internal qualia and come alive with the rich structure only to lose it when we die

So, the reason why a Boltzmann brain would vanish almost instantly is because the longer it is to survive the more support structures it would need, a larger part of the local environment would have to be compatible with a longer existence, and all that makes it less likely for the fluctuation yielding such an outcome to have occurred.

What's time to a boltzmann brain?

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#68
post #9

I'm not sure the definition of "intention" the article suggests is a useful one. He tries to make it sound like he's being conservative: > That is, we should ascribe intentions to a system if and only if it helps to predict and explain the behaviour of the system. Whether it really has intentions beyond this is not a question I am attempting to answer (and I think that it is probably not determinate in any case). And…

Humans, too, would likely be nearly stateless if we took a point-in-time snapshot of them and repeatedly simulated them from that point on various short (4000ms, similar to 4000 tokens) sequences of nerve impulses. Nevertheless the human would be acting intentionally (for in-distribution impulse patterns) for the brief period of simulation. Fine-tuning and RLHF seem to impart more intentionality to the pure stateless…

> Humans, too, would likely be nearly stateless if we took a point-in-time snapshot of them and repeatedly simulated them from that point on various short (4000ms, similar to 4000 tokens) sequences of nerve impulses.

“Humans too would be stateless if we hacked their brain in a way that made them stateless” that would also make them non-human though, and unlikely to be able to exhibit meaningful high-level cognitive abilities, so I don't really understand what your point is…

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#69
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The model itself is stateless, and it doesn't seem right to me to ascribe "intent" to a stateless function. Statefulness can be modelled statelessly so "statelessness" is not a sufficient reason to dismiss intentionality. The only question is whether the relationship between the inputs of the function and its outputs correspond to what we might call "intent", which the cited definition attempts to outline. Obviousl…

Their identity often falls apart after a few rounds and the self reference seems to my experience at least simply a veneer from linguistic training. It’s a great illusion but an illusion nonetheless.

Your identity falls apart every night. What's your point?

Re: A Multi-Level View of LLM Intentionality

#70
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ascribing human properties to computers and software has always seemed very bizarre to me. I always assume people are confused when they do that. There is no meaningful intersection between biology, intelligence, and computers but people constantly keep trying to imbue electromagnetic signal processors with human/biological qualities very much like how children attribute souls to teddy bears. Computers are mechanical…

Try having a human without electromagnetic first principles. In fact, anything really. But really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite#Human_brain

Quoting for context:

>> Magnetite can be found in the hippocampus. The hippocampus is associated with information processing, specifically learning and memory.

>> Using an ultrasensitive superconducting magnetometer in a clean-lab environment, we have detected the presence of ferromagnetic material in a variety of tissues from the human brain.

>> The role of magnetite in the brain is still not well understood, and there has been a general lag in applying more modern, interdisciplinary techniques to the study of biomagnetism.

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