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On Desktop GUI Minimalism

mycophobia.org

61–70 of 92 posts

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#61
As a Gnome 40+ user for the past three years, and before that, XFCE and Awesome WM, based on my experience... NONE of these desktop/WM managed to resolve cluttering.

Awesome WM gives you an organized clutter if you opened too many windows that's not bare-minimum terminals, while XFCE with all it's window UI elements made the clutter even worse (but you can just minimize the window). The new Gnome just made it so that opening more than three windows under the same workspace gives you nightmares due to lack of a dock as well as minimize buttons.

(Now, to clarify, I had good experiences with all the desktop/wms mentioned above, so it's not a criticize, more of pointing out my desires)

If you take a look at the screenshot presented in the article, I don't really think it's a productive desktop any more because it takes at least 5 seconds to find the window that you wanted. I mean, I'm sure MATE has tried it's best there, but... I think we are all limited by the lack of imagination of how a good desktop should be like.

For me, I resolved my clutter problems by installing a Dock extension as well as (most importantly, actually) adding an external monitor. So finally I can comfortably open more than 6 windows at a time :) (Yep, I keep the tree windows that I wanted on the main monitor and throw the rest of clutters to the second one :)

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#62

Minimal desktops are productivity boosters. On top of that ones that can be controlled by keyboard input are super important. 99% of the time you just want information. Text. The chrome does not matter. Yet modern desktops and web pages make humans hunt and pick through poorly designed interfaces to get the info we need. I use EXWM. It’s a time saver. I have no desktop because I am either using the full screen for a…

I used to use Emacs for everything, even Telega and SICP. But... elfeed and GNU's are damn slow compared to the opposite approach: Unix, sfeed, lynx -dump for inline HTML info, castget, mutt, msmtp, isync, slrn and amused/mpv. MuPDF and sxiv for media. That's it, plus some CLI gemini/gopher browser.

And, yes, I managed to bind slrnpull with GNU's avoiding a huge chunk of time. And, SLRN was much faster. On hackability, I don't care, awk/sed/sh it's my glue, and perl+CPAN for a big task.

In the end, it's being run on a batch basis with cron, so I have the ultimate Unix tools: let the tools do the hard work themselves with scripts, so you just ignore anything else and focus on your current task. Mails, news posts and RSS's are currently managed in the background, a single script will download and upload all the data.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#63
post #50
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just want information. Text Text is a not an information-dense medium, and for many kind of data it simply sucks. Also, please don’t just go around throwing productivity into sentences, it is just completely baseless and biased observation on your own part - if you better enjoy a new workflow, but it is actually slower, you might still feel more “productive”.

> Text is a not an information-dense medium true, but the api is very stable

Not sure it isn't: try to convey this information within the same space graphically...

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#64
> I even briefly used a tiling window manager before very quickly returning to the floating ones; the appeal of such utterly inflexible window management I will simply never understand.

The author mentions this design in passing but I think it is contextually important to understand why people might like this at all so I'll share what I appreciate about tiling window managers:

The appeal, for me, is the inflexibility. Tiling window managers and their often bundled 'tags' approach to window management offer a simplicity that is comforting in its constancy to me, the user. To sum it up, they make me feel 'at home' using my computer. Comfy goes beyond familiarity though.

I never have a mess of windows to deal with across my monitors, where I'm constantly needing to look at a taskbar, minimizing and un-minimizing programs (or looking through a stack of 'shaded' windows in the author's case). Each of my frequently used programs has its own tag, or shares a tag (visually as a tile) with other programs. While the programs I have open at any one time change, their locations don't. Everything in its right place, I always know what is where. I switch between all programs directly with ease, with no intermediate interruptions to occupy my attention, my hands never leaving my keyboard. No 'looking' for stuff. Switches happen instantly because there are no transitions or any other forms of detectable latency (and for that matter, no compositor either). Combine all this with extensive use of scratchpads for ad-hoc and exploratory tasks and all the bases have been covered. Comfy.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#65

> I even briefly used a tiling window manager before very quickly returning to the floating ones; the appeal of such utterly inflexible window management I will simply never understand. The author mentions this design in passing but I think it is contextually important to understand why people might like this at all so I'll share what I appreciate about tiling window managers: The appeal, for me, is the inflexibility…

I remember I used Aston on Windows XP back in the day. All of my programs were assigned to their hot keys and I never left my keyboard. On top of that it ate less ram than a regular explorer.exe of Windows!

A couple of decades later, I went through so many macOS versions, Windows 7,8,10 and different Gnome/KDE/Xfce etc., to find out just recently (well, a couple of years by now) that sway wm (or i3wm for X11) is a thing. What a relief! I’m back into old calm days with no eternal switching and multitasking that takes so much of my attention, giving nothing in return. God, I wish I knew about that much much earlier! When I left Windows for good, that was the only thing I missed so much! Now I enjoy that and 300 MB of occupied ram out of my 16 or 32 GB setups. Would highly recommend to any nerd like me!

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#66

> I even briefly used a tiling window manager before very quickly returning to the floating ones; the appeal of such utterly inflexible window management I will simply never understand. The author mentions this design in passing but I think it is contextually important to understand why people might like this at all so I'll share what I appreciate about tiling window managers: The appeal, for me, is the inflexibility…

Tiling is not great, but I believe is better than floating window managers. Yet neither are good enough in 2023.

In floating systems, partially covered windows are useless and usually avoided: either you want to see everything, or you minimize the window. The few times one tries to actually keep a partially covered window (i.e. show only the last few lines of a terminal visible), the UX is terrible because as soon as you switch focus the visibility of the entire stack of windows changes, and you need to click around/Alt-Tab to restore the previous layout. For this reason, 99% of people just have a single window that's maximized per workspace.

Tiling window managers could be decent if they were a core experience, but in reality no one develops apps for them so you always have some popup that spawns and fills half your screen.

The major shortcoming of both is that they only work in rectangular, desktop-sized screens. Mobile UIs avoid both, and default to single-window-always-maximized, which still isn't good enough.

Scrollable tiling managers, however, would be the bee's knees: windows are laid out on an infinitely scrollable horizontal layout, which would also easily replicate the common side-by-side layout "power users" often rely on. There are some niche experiments like PaperWM, but they haven't ironed out the UX for some reason: if they just made the entire layout scrollable by panning on your touchpad/mobile screen, it would instantly be better than anything we have today, and free us from the tyranny of window management. Additionally, it would work with both our widescreen, cinema-sized desktop monitors, and mobile devices.

(I have never used it and memory might fail me, but I seem to remember Palm webOS devices had this scrollable "card" layout system which people seemed to like a lot. See https://www.palmtotal.com/sites/www.palmtotal.com/files/imag...)

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#67

> I even briefly used a tiling window manager before very quickly returning to the floating ones; the appeal of such utterly inflexible window management I will simply never understand. The author mentions this design in passing but I think it is contextually important to understand why people might like this at all so I'll share what I appreciate about tiling window managers: The appeal, for me, is the inflexibility…

In a very similar vein, on Windows I use WindowManager [0] to always open windows in the same position, based on application and/or window title. There's a global keyboard shortcut to save the size and position of the current window, so that it’s automatically restored to that same size and position the next time (and every subsequent time) it is opened. For many applications, using that keyboard shortcut once is enough, but one can define more sophisticated criteria in the configuration dialog. This basically provides the same benefits as described by the parent.

I don't like tiling window managers, because I want most windows to be roughly centered in my field of view, and also vertically maximized. Actually, what I really want to be centered is the relevant contents of each window, which generally isn’t the same as centering the window itself, due to sidebars and other application-specific layout vagaries. Hence the necessity to save size and position per application. I also rarely need to see multiple windows simultaneously side-by-side. Having the windows centered and full size (if not full screen) trumps the drawback of having to press Alt+Tab or other keyboard shortcuts to switch between them.

[0] https://www.desksoft.com/WindowManager.htm

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#68
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> boosting my productivity significantly With all due respect, I can never take these self-made claims at face value. You definitely feel that you are more productive, but that may or may not be the actual case and it is easy to lie to ourselves.

That's true of virtually every comment making a claim on HN. Unless you've done a scientific experiment and collected data, you want know for sure. In any case I'll add another anecdote for someone that has nearly the identical setup to the GP and will say it also significantly increased my productivity. Don't really care if anyone believes me.

> it also significantly increased my productivity

But how? What were you doing that involved window placement or positioning that "makes you more productive"? I just don't see how these activities, in the context of doing day-to-day work, could shave off more than a few minutes a day.

"Significantly" implies to me some double-digit percentage increase in the ability to accomplish tasks, and I just can't see how a window manager could possibly be responsible for such a thing.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#69

I think issues with attempts to redefine pc computing interfaces is that despite what is stated people are not actually starting from first principles when they go to redesign a personal computing GUI interface. Even in this article just a few sentences after stating we should start from first principles he then jumps into the assumption of the "desktop". The baggage of TTY interfaces in textual interfaces and the "d…

There isn’t really a lot of alternatives to the "desktop", since it basically just means arranging stuff within a rectangle, and what else would you do on a rectangular screen? The only alternatives are having everything fullscreen, like TUIs, or else tiling windows, so that you never see the actual desktop. Similar for folders. You need a way to visually represent groupings of stuff, and there isn’t a lot of choice besides lists/menus or a two-dimensional layout of proxy items (usually labelled icons).

I think we already found out what works best for monitor+mouse+keyboard 20-ish years ago. There's a lot to improve in terms of consistency and various details, but I don’t think there's any new paradigm to be found that would work better.

Re: On Desktop GUI Minimalism

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting you mention this. The way I use my desktop I always have my applications maximized and I just alt-tab to switch contexts. I also am in the terminal a lot and use Yaquake but not in maximized mode because I don’t want to focus in the bottom left corner of my screen. I also put the task bar left vertical because I don’t care about the horizontal space. Doing all of this still felt cumbersome and then i…

Well that's kind of impossible, as alt-tab will show al windows or applications. The best productivity for me is a separate machine per context (with synergy or similar), because it won't clutter the alt-tab. Fast userswitching doesn't work, as I'll have to switch back and forth between users (roles actually). I simply want isolated users, with their own filesystem/directory, but still be able to control them at the…

When I said I used alt tab to switch contexts I meant applications as I said I run my applications full screen.
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