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Slavery's last stronghold

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Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#61

Post by Produce »

tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

>While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventual realization that religion has no place in our society. We make the mistake of relenting that religion is used for moral guidance – when nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems. Tolerance of intolerance is not the moral high ground.

Communist Russia, anyone?

I think that to stamp out people's exploitation of each other, we must unite, not divide. Religion is as much about culture as it is about power. Suddenly telling people that their culture is no longer accepted and that they should convert or get the fk out is exactly what Christianity did in a lot of places. It's almost funny how being against something usually makes people repeat that very thing themselves.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#62

Post by edwinnathaniel »

pbiggar wrote: post #29
edwinnathaniel wrote: post #15

A semi-slavery, in a smaller isolated situation, still exists these days in some of the Arab countries and Malaysia where households will recruit servants (maid of the house) from a country such as Indonesia and pretty much did the usual drill: - Ask the maid to work inhumanly - Giving no vacation or "day out with friends" - Held hostage the passport - Occasionally raped or violent beating (sometime by using a very h…

Please don't refer to this practice as 'semi-slavery'. It is slavery. If you are held against your will and made work, it is slavery (and is in fact defined by the UN as such, as I recall).

The reason why I chose the word "semi" was because of a few things:

1) It's not an official form of slavery on paper as in they got bought in exchange of money, but more as a "helper of the house" originally.

2) The said maid does have option: cut ties or report to the police, but they were normally under pressure not to do so (psychologically)

But I won't argue/debate that it is definitely slavery.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#63

Post by tomkin »

bh42222 wrote: post #59
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems It should be plain to see that development came first, then more atheism. This should be very obvious in Europe's history. I think you're confusing a symptom of chaos and brutal existence with the root cause of it.

It's true that the correlation is weak, but the reluctance to actually do the studies is due to the implications of them.

Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. This wishy-washy approach to making sense out of violence is why it exists at all. If it's not true that atheism promotes less violence, then let's see why countries with higher atheism are less violent, shouldn't we? I'm all for making an argument concrete.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#64

Post by ajuc »

Produce wrote: post #61
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

>While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventual realization that religion has no place in our society. We make the mistake of relenting that religion is used for moral guidance – when nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems. Tolera…

One can argue that USSR had state religion of Marxism-Leninism, quite strictly enforced.

It was complete with prophets like Stalin, saints and martyrs like that boy that denounced his parents (I forgot his name), or stachan-workers, mythology, holidays, rituals, etc.

Not that I think religion is the source of all evil. It's just the source of power, and power correlates with evil.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#65

Post by egiva »

Unfortunately Mauritania isn't the last stronghold of slavery. Modern slavery exists in a number of places - including:

The Ivory Coast - cocoa farming. Child slaves are an exploited part of the labor force in cocoa production (yes, your chocolate's main ingredient, cocoa, may come from sources that employ forced labor). Info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_cocoa_production

The Unites States: there are an estimated 50,000 people trafficked into/out-of the US every year. 2.8 million children live in the streets, with over 30% exposed to the sex trade in some capacity. Source: http://www.gchope.org/human-slavery-statistics.html

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#66

Post by DanBC »

Forced Child Labour remains a problem in Central Africa

(http://www.irinnews.org/Report/94721/AFRICA-High-cost-of-chi...)

Note what they're doing - sometimes mining oil and minerals, or being sex-slaves for other people who are involved in mining. How many of those minerals are used in the tech devices we use everyday?

Laws might exist in some countries, but there are suspicions of corruption; and some legal systems are overworked.

(http://www.irinnews.org/Report/95013/UGANDA-Women-trafficked...)

Really, IRIN is a remarkable source of thoroughly depressing information about all this kind of stuff. I could dump thirty URLs and summaries here, but I'll let you look at IRIN in your own time.

They do also cover good news and positive stories. The photo archives are remarkable too.

Another good source is the UNHCR.

$2.5billion per year from Human Trafficking:

(http://www.unhcr.org.uk/resources/monthly-updates/september-...)

More relevant to the OP:

Anti-Slavery activists in prison while no-one has been convicted for slavery offences:

(http://www.irinnews.org/Report/91528/MAURITANIA-Activists-tr...)

And to finish, a "positive" story about an escaped slave.

(http://www.unhcr.org.uk/news-and-views/news-list/news-detail...)

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#67

Post by tomkin »

Produce wrote: post #61
tomkin wrote: post #50

This problem, like many problems in the world are often examined only a few layers deep. The conclusions are always the same: Poverty/Slavery are the consequence of corruption, or an evil dictator of some kind. While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventua…

>While it is true that dictatorship, blind eyes and cruelty are the embodiment of these issues, religion is the sword that is wielded. Each year the west makes more progress in what I would consider the eventual realization that religion has no place in our society. We make the mistake of relenting that religion is used for moral guidance – when nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems. Tolera…

  The binary argument of Russia is an old one. Tried and true, but completely 
  removed from a full understanding of what makes people violent. Russia and 
  atheism are orthogonal relationships at best.
> Suddenly telling people that their culture is no longer accepted and that they should convert or get the fk out is exactly what Christianity did in a lot of places.

  Allowing people to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions stomps
  out ones abilities to use that belief as a way to herd people into a specific
  direction. That's it. No one needs to uproot their culture or how they go about
  their lives. These ideologies start with an indoctrination that carries people to
  their own demise without evaluation. That's what needs to stop.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#68

Post by ajuc »

tomkin wrote: post #63
bh42222 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems It should be plain to see that development came first, then more atheism. This should be very obvious in Europe's history. I think you're confusing a symptom of chaos and brutal existence with the root cause of it.

It's true that the correlation is weak, but the reluctance to actually do the studies is due to the implications of them. Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. This…

> Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular.

Replace atheists with "people that think independly", and I could agree.

As it is I cannot. One counterexample - most of the people in the Red Army were atheists. That did not changed the fact, that significant part of red army pillaged and raped what they could on their way to Berlin (including civilians and nations they were supposedly "freeing" of Germans).

Not beliving in gods don't make you automaticaly less violent. Both nazi Germany and communist Russia were more or less atheists. They instead developed new rituals and mythology to serve the same purpose. Gods are not needed to make people kill people.

Authority and group thinking suffices.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#69

Post by lambersley »

tomkin wrote: post #58
lambersley wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with "an evil dictator of some kind." Many peoples have suffered the injustices of religion, also in agreement. "Nations with higher atheism are the ones with the least problems." Can you please source that? I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. It is the two-edged sword that cuts and heals, depending on its wielder. Religion played a crutial part in Slave…

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass. Here's the problem I have with that. Let's say that I am a member of the SS and being a member provides me with a *moral compass*. OK, wait...those are the *wrong* morals. Right. The attack shouldn't be against people's belief or spirituality – but of the idea that you shouldn't borrow ideas without evaluation or due diligence. > Relig…

> I believe religion in general does aid in providing some sense of moral compass.

Moral compass in its simplest form. 'Thou shall not murder' - I'm not sure there is an argument in terms of "right v wrong"

> crucial in the abolishment

Perhaps a Western view, but looking at the countries who lead the charge, they were strongly influenced by 'the church'

> Sources

Thank you.

I only had a few minutes to quickly skim thru the articles but found a lot on inconclusive data in the studies. Comments below my article:

1) "pretty non-religious" does not equate to atheism

2) Atheism seems to represent non-JudeoChristian, non-Muslim. The countries that are mentioned here aren't exactly 'athiest'.

Wikipedia suggest, "84% to 96% of Japanese adhere to Shinto and Buddhism"

Norway - Norse Paganism

Germany - 55M between Christianity and Muslim

Dutch - Christianity still dominant, 39% being religiously affiliated

Brits - is there a question here?

3) Comparison of crime statistics between Czech Republic and United States offers very little to support the argument. The USA has a plethora of issues driving higher crime rates than solely religion.

4) Could have some merit but 'belief in God' does not necessarily translate to 'Religious'

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#70

Post by tomkin »

ajuc wrote: post #68
tomkin wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that the correlation is weak, but the reluctance to actually do the studies is due to the implications of them. Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. This…

> Atheists are, by nature, less violent. Not because they are somehow enlightened, but because there is at least one major grievance removed from the equation. Atheists don't tend to burn down other buildings because they are different, or ravage an entire community because they aren't secular. Replace atheists with "people that think independly", and I could agree. As it is I cannot. One counterexample - most of the…

> most of the people in the Red Army were atheists.

  Orthogonal. The Red Army, nor Nazis used their atheism as a "guiding light" or a 
  tool to get people to do what they wanted – they used military force.
> They instead developed new rituals and mythology to serve the same purpose.

  Yes. It's called a religion.
> Gods are not needed to make people kill people.

  God and religion aren't the same. Scraping religion doesn't remove the possibility 
  of a god, or the belief in one.
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