Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#61

Post by sneak » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

> “I’m excited that this excellent, tight integration of Python and Excel is now seeing the light of day,” says Guido van Rossum, Python’s creator and now a Microsoft distinguished engineer.

It's depressing seeing someone who has done so much work for the free software community now working to enrich the spyware-laden proprietary product offerings of a megacorp.

Nothing about this is "good for Python" or hackers - it's just good for Microsoft to sell more Excel (and Microsoft accounts). That makes the world worse.

I thought the B stood for benevolent.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#62

Post by layer8 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

felixgallo wrote: post #58

layer8 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sort of makes sense to limit it to the cloud, because making Python an integral part of the Excel file format would reduce its portability and introduce all sorts of compatibility headaches going forward.

Excel already has versioned file formats with significantly different affordances, and hasn't appeared to have all sorts of compatibility headaches as a result.

Integrating a whole separate language ecosystem is one or two orders of magnitude more complex though. It’s more like HTML5/WHATWG suddenly adding Python as a first-class scripting language besides JavaScript, and web browsers having to integrate that.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#63

Post by ayhanfuat » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #15

CodeCompost wrote: post #6

Wait, didn't they already do this? I'm pretty sure I downloaded an official add-on for this a few years ago.

There was a YC company that did it, maybe a decade ago. I bet someone will remember.

DataNitro! I knew very little about programming and was trying to create examination schedules for the faculty I was working at. I managed to convince the dean to buy a license and it pretty much changed my life (granted it was mostly Python that changed it but DataNitro made it even more accessible it to me back then).

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#64

Post by 0cf8612b2e1e » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

abenga wrote: post #41

Our_Benefactors wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people who use excel heavily are not really “programmers” and don’t have strong fundamentals or an appetite to manage their own software stack. This also simplifies development on MS end by only needing to validate a single python version.

Then they should embed the supported version of python in Excel and manage it automatically for them. This can be validated with Excel before release.

This seems like the only solution. Do not copy all of Python’s warts, but offer a curated experience. Microsoft Experience (TM) with fixed APIs, no package management or dealing with ecosystem churn.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#65

Post by pid-1 » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:02 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #34

cardamomo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That caught my attention too! I'm curious why they would choose this model.

Because Python, with the required numerical analysis libraries is a pain to setup, and there are a ton of ways for it to get messed up. Doing everything in the cloud massively simplifies deployment and support.

Microsoft could ship its own Python distro within Excel. The biggest problem is that historically Guido / the Steering Council have avoided being involved in how py libs are distribuited, so there are many ways to do everything. But if you do have an opinion and means to enforce it, mantaining a Python environment can be a quite smooth experience.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#66

Post by IshanMi » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:05 PM UTC

A lot of people are taught Excel early on in school. I wonder if this would result in more people learning or being introduced to Python at an early age?

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#67

Post by sixothree » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:06 PM UTC

Now if they could only fix the issue where dates are converted into scientific notation. For the past 10 years I've been getting a steady stream of excel files with sometimes thousands of dates that are formatted incorrectly. And there is literally no "easy" way to fix this.

I'm tired of it Microsoft. Just fix the darn issue please.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#68

Post by PurpleRamen » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:09 PM UTC

diffeomorphism wrote: post #24

Wait just a moment. Libreoffice had python for years, but nobody cared and instead complained about needing 100% compatible VBA for "real work". Where are those people now?

If it sucks, people won't use it.

If people don't know about it, people won't use it.

If people are accustomed to something different, people will ask for it.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#69

Post by sixothree » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:10 PM UTC

inglor wrote: post #49

cableshaft wrote: post #13

I wish it wasn't solely powered only by Microsoft Cloud and could support python running locally, but regardless I think this will still be huge and single-handedly modernizes Excel by a large margin. This alone could eliminate the need for websites that just want this sort of data. I can think of a past project at a previous job I did building an analytics website used only by a handful of people internally that cou…

Hi I work on Excel, can you write a summary of why that's important to you and send it to bgruenbaum@microsoft.com ? I'll get it in front of a PM. Alternatively PMs read all the feedback sent via the feedback UI on Excel web and desktop so you can use that instead if you prefer.

Can you just please fix the issue with date strings (such as "20230822090811") being converted into scientific notation? I've received literally hundreds of these documents over the past decade. And as long as this problem exists, I will keep receiving them.

Can you please just add a button - "unmess this document"? The number of man-hours I've wasted re-creating documents is countless. My job is to do other things not fix excel documents.

Re: Microsoft is bringing Python to Excel

#70

Post by giaour » Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 2:12 PM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #46

cableshaft wrote: post #13

I wish it wasn't solely powered only by Microsoft Cloud and could support python running locally, but regardless I think this will still be huge and single-handedly modernizes Excel by a large margin. This alone could eliminate the need for websites that just want this sort of data. I can think of a past project at a previous job I did building an analytics website used only by a handful of people internally that cou…

It sort of makes sense to limit it to the cloud, because making Python an integral part of the Excel file format would reduce its portability and introduce all sorts of compatibility headaches going forward.

Whether it runs in the cloud or locally, the included python source will be written for a specific runtime version and environment. If excel were to run python locally, it would presumably bundle an interpreter (+ any needed pip packages) rather than relying on whatever was installed locally.

The cloud execution model does still have an advantage in that it can retain old runtimes in perpetuity for backwards compatibility, though