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Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

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Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#61

Post by scrum-treats »

LorenDB wrote: post #22
geophile wrote: post #14

Can someone knowledgeable comment on the possibility of VivLdi becoming the de facto standard browser for Linux? I played with it a little, thought it worked well, and most notably, it worked well for websites that gave Firefox trouble.

I'd prefer to see Brave be the de facto default. Except for some crypto stuff that is bundled by default, it seems to be really nice and even ships its own privacy focused search engine. (Disclaimer: I personally don't daily drive Brave, but I would consider it if I ever decided to drop Opera.)

Brave is really showing up in terms of privacy and security focused browsing. What's interesting to me is that Mozilla had Brendan Eich, and excused him. And today, with Eich at the helm, Brave is climbing the ranks while Mozilla finds itself in an ever-increasing slump.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#62

Post by a_humean »

alentred wrote: post #44

Having never developed a browser engine, my naive question is why is it so hard to develop a new one? We have decent free and/or open-source software in other areas, why is it hard to reproduce this experience with the browsers? Or, is the problem in the complexity of the modern web browsing experience, and the walled garden created around it by current major browser developers (new standards, etc.)?

Web browsers are extraordinarily large and complex applications that conform to reams and reams of constantly expanding standards adding up to tens of millions of lines of code. They have to maintain backwards compatibility with software dating back decades. Their complexity and size rivals the operating systems they run on. All mainstream browsers today are effectively forks or cosmetic skins of a handful remaining browser lineages that have been in development for decades now.

Probably the only notable attempts at building something from scratch recently is servo and ladybird. Servo was (is) an experimental platform to trial new components for Firefox is isn't a serious option for everyday use. Ladybird is primarily a hobbyist project that isn't a serious option for everyday use but has managed to implement a large part of the features of a modern working browser. The article called it "crazy", but it is impressive how far it's got so far.

Also, all of these browsers are open source with permissive licences for the bulk of their source code.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#63

Post by e2le »

anonymousiam wrote: post #52

People here have talked about Mozilla's financial issues, but so far nobody has posted the donation link. If you use Firefox or Thunderbird and wish to continue doing so, here's the link: https://donate.mozilla.org/

Thunderbird collects donations separately from Mozilla.

https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/donate/

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#64

Post by martinald »

pessimizer wrote: post #47
Beached wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use kubuntu as my daily driver for work for a little over 2 years now. I still run into daily issues that just make me not want to use it for my personal desktop os. I fret Everytime I update, yet I must update due to work. but I have to schedule and plan those updates so that when the whole thing takes a shit, I can spend 2 or 3 hours fixing it. Just using the built in update utility, or apt upgrade, or really any…

It's got to be the hardware. Most people don't have two or three hours fixing their desktop after an update. I use Debian Testing, and I can't remember the last time an update went bad; it's been years. If you use bleeding-edge hardware with an OS that vendors aren't specifically targeting, expect problems. I gave up trying to put Linux on random new laptops, so I've researched compatibility ahead of every purchase I…

Feel like I'm on a different planet to a lot of these desktop Linux users.

I've used desktop Linux since the late 90s - Redhat 6 was the first disto I used.

I have had uncountable complete system failures since then. As the parent says doing a dist-upgrade has a very non-0 chance of completely bricking the system. I've even had apt brick itself multiple times through normal upgrades.

Linux on the desktop for me over the past 25 years has been hilariously unreliable, by far the most buggy software I have used over my career.

Linux on the server is flawless and I use it all the time, but the amount of software installed compared to desktop usage is tiny, and I don't do dist upgrades on servers (would rebuilt it onto another machine).

For me after 25 years of various attempts the most reliable desktop "Linux" is actually Windows with WSL2. All hardware works great, sleep works, Bluetooth works, display scaling works, WiFi6E works etc. And I have a great Linux machine thru WSL2.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#65

Post by marcodiego »

7e wrote: post #36
marcodiego wrote: post #15

Together, Linux + ChromeOS (much closer to standard GNU+Linux than Android) have something between 6% and 7% of the desktop. I don't remember people saying the same about MacOS when it was around that mark. Of course, we must be realistic. Linux around 6% is very different from MacOS at 6%. In that case, they already had support from items people complain to this day about Linux not having; main examĺes are msoffice…

https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-sha... This has it at 5.1%. But ChromeOS has a lot of corporate mojo making it work. It’s only partially open source. A lot of the good bits are closed. So that puts Linux at 2.91%. A rounding error. For 30 years.

Your data, as of this writing, is from January 23. Consider this: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide... which fully agrees with your data and shows the combination Linux+ChromeOS above 7% in June 23.

Thanks for pointing how fast Linux on the desktop has been growing lately.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#66

Post by PennRobotics »

bitsandboots wrote: post #4

> The love the Linux world has for Firefox is not reciprocated by Mozilla in the same way, and this shows in various places where issues fixed and addressed on the Windows side are ignored on the Linux side for years or longer. > The best and most visible example of that is hardware video acceleration. That's not "Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem", that's "Desktop Linux has a problem". hardware acceleration was al…

Wayland might eventually be better, but for a Linux-hostile computer configuration (10 bpp color, Nvidia, audio only half-supported by Realtek, no snaps/flatpak) the constant flag setting friction, video codecs being in limbo, and programs like OpenSCAD having a huge keyboard delay and screen flickering (which Firefox also had for a long time) led me after a decade of Linux use to a reasonably satisfying experience (ignoring time sync problems and slow-ass cross-OS file access):

Windows 10 + WSL

I thought an AMD + Radeon laptop would be a great improvement. Evidently I have the Reverse Midas Touch. Also garbage. Sadly, FULL hardware/peripheral support requires Windows or Mac, happiness everywhere else dictates Linux, and WSL delivers both (plus WebGPU, which is another aspect of Firefox/Linux that is perplexing and half-baked).

On both computers, X was a dramatic improvement over Wayland: proper color support (i.e. parts of the GIMP UI wouldn't turn magenta or half-transparent, you could enable HDR in Chrome), no extreme keyboard lag, all my Java binaries work without requiring cryptic flags, I didn't have to compile my own drivers from a guy named ElFarto, I could finally forget the difference between AV1 and VP9 and whichever gstreamer package lets you watch video again...

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#67

Post by nerdix »

NuSkooler wrote: post #28
SushiHippie wrote: post #18

> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. Is it really the best solution to crea…

100% How the author arrives at the conclusion that the answer is to create another browser is beyond me. Advocate for Firefox. Invest in Firefox. There you go.

I'm not saying you have to agree but it's pretty clear how the author arrived at that conclusion if you read the article.

To summarize: Firefox's shrinking marketshare is an existential threat to Mozilla. The vast majority of its revenue is tied to the search engine deal with Google that the author describes as quasi-charity. Linux is clearly a lower priority than Windows and Mac (and the author even says that it's logical for Mozilla to prioritize Windows/Mac). So if there is a substantial drop in revenue (like the Google deal falls apart or Google just decides to pay Mozilla less) then Linux will bear the brunt of the reduction in resources.

The author sees reliance on Mozilla as a risk

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#68

Post by cxr »

lelanthran wrote: post #46
SushiHippie wrote: post #18

> In an ideal world, the major stakeholders of the Linux desktop – KDE, GNOME, the various major distributions – would get together and seriously consider a plan of action. The best possible solution, in my view, would be to fork one of the major browser engines (or pick one and significantly invest in it), and modify this engine and tailor it specifically for the Linux desktop. Is it really the best solution to crea…

The problem is that you cannot donate to Firefox's development. Donations all to to Mozilla, and if the article is to be believed, Mozilla won't use the extra money or FF for Linux. Hell, in the past we've seen Mozilla divert funds away from Firefox to support unrelated stuff. There is currently no way, right now, to give financial support to Firefox development without forking it.

> There is currently no way, right now, to give financial support to Firefox development without forking it.

This is not true. There is no way to fund Firefox development by giving money to Mozilla, but you can send as much money as you want to Firefox contributors, incl. hiring someone to fix bugs full time, just like any other project.

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#69

Post by goku12 »

alentred wrote: post #44

Having never developed a browser engine, my naive question is why is it so hard to develop a new one? We have decent free and/or open-source software in other areas, why is it hard to reproduce this experience with the browsers? Or, is the problem in the complexity of the modern web browsing experience, and the walled garden created around it by current major browser developers (new standards, etc.)?

I have no firsthand experience either. So, this might be informative: https://drewdevault.com/2020/03/18/Reckless-limitless-scope....

Re: Desktop Linux has a Firefox problem

#70

Post by goku12 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #21

... I thought I was one of the few Linux users left using Firefox. All of my coworkers are using Chromium.

Every acquaintance of mine who uses Linux (and many who don't) uses Firefox. And that's a conscious decision too - they are aware of the recent chrome shenanigans.
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