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Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

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Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#61

Post by userbinator »

hoten wrote: post #44
fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but as far as the users are concerned, do the layers add much value to this use-case?

Likely no, but a kid isn't going to be learning low level systems programming in highschool. Their entry point into the world is programming is going to be high-level, as that has less barrier to entry. My point is that kids in the 80s interested in computers likely had the skillset to do this job. Kids interested in programming today, they are more likely to be qualified to make the school a website, not program its…

but a kid isn't going to be learning low level systems programming in highschool

There are still plenty doing that; often getting their first exposure via the cracking scene.

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#62

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x »

doubleg72 wrote: post #53
c_o_n_v_e_x wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I suspect this is what would be difficult to replace. Nah, anything driven by relays and or pneumatic controls can be replaced with modern, low cost PLC hardware. It is common for old chemical plants to have their control systems replaced while still operating. Control is handed over from the old system to the new system (hot cutover) one control loop at a time. All you need is adequate planning.

You have no clue what you're talking about. You are correct in that low cost PLC hardware can replace relay and pneumatic controls, but HVAC systems aren't just basic relays and pneumatics. They are microcomputers that communicate with actual protocols. They is no hot cutover or simple handover like you say. Source: I literally just lead a project to upgrade the PLC controls on a few air handler units and build entir…

Easy, tiger. I was talking about upgrading controls on old equipment, not new equipment.

>but HVAC systems aren't just basic relays and pneumatics.

Old ones are.

Feel free to withdraw your overly aggressive comment any time you'd like.

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#63

Post by Sunspark »

anyfoo wrote: post #58
Sunspark wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If programming it was a school project for an 80s kid, might as well try to make its replacement a school project for a 20s kid. If a kid did it back then, the integration can't be that hard. You need to find a decision-maker to agree to the liability of letting some kid implement a system today. What if something goes wrong and all the children roast alive or something? Then the parents would sue. It'll never happ…

> That 80s Amiga is probably incredibly reliable and robust with its real multi-tasking OS and doesn't require "security patches". I generally agree with some of your comment, but this sentence confuses me a bit. I'd argue that the only reason that it does not require security patches is because it's not attached to any network. Though, probably the only actual reason would be that nobody is looking too closely at th…

I am sure someone else can explain it better, but basically in the 80s you mostly only had a choice of 8-bit computers (like Apple, C64, etc.), DOS, Macs, Atari ST and Amiga. The 8-bit machines weren't really networking compatible or powerful enough to do more than 1 thing at a time (128k of ram, 1.02 MHz CPU, etc. though I suppose the 16-bit Apple //gs could have been a contender). Macs would have been way too expensive for this purpose. I don't think boards bought Ataris. A DOS PC could have run a multi-threaded program, but if an issue happened then I guess the whole system would go down. So that leaves the Amiga..

The Amiga was the most performant system, its components (i.e. audio, video, etc.) were all able to work independently of the CPU. It also came with 3 networking APIs built-in (one of which was TCP/IP) which probably helped a lot with the coding.

It was also the only machine with a true multi-tasking OS. Everything else was either co-operative or non.

If an issue happened with one piece, it wouldn't have brought down the whole system because everything was able to run independently.

As for security patches, I was expressing a bit of frustration there because I have seen over and over a Windows "security patch" introduce bugs or break functionality. You didn't have that problem back then with the Amiga. It just worked.

I agree the Amiga was a good choice for the time to administer multiple machines.. and it came with decades of support from the original programmer!

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#64

Post by ginko »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #37
hoten wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of layers added to modern programming and computer systems has gone up significantly since the 80s. It's sensible to claim that a kid from the 80s had far less to learn to be effective in the world of the 80s, than a 20s kid would need today.

My guess is kids today can be effective with less knowledge, depending on what one is trying to do. Some prompt engineering, JS, Python, etc can accomplish a lot. JS is appearing everywhere, and Python isn't far behind. Both seem approachable for modest projects. Basic had its charms, yet also becomes difficult to maintain as it grows -- not unlike many modern stacks. I suppose the primary difference is the stack is…

>Some prompt engineering, JS, Python, etc can accomplish a lot.

The problem is you can’t just deploy this and forget it without regular security updates (with the likelihood of breakage in compatibility - python libs are particularly bad with this)

That said, the original radio based system is probably extremely easy to mess with if you have a basic SDR. It’s just that no one bothered so far.

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#65

Post by tshaddox »

Sunspark wrote: post #31
tivert wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect this is what would be difficult to replace. A bespoke wireless sensor monitoring and communications system, integrated into an old heating/cooling system. Modern system just would not integrate into this, without a lot of work. You would have to replace everything, probably including the actual heating/cooling systems themselves. I wonder if it just integrated into a pre-existing control network: > The Co…

> If programming it was a school project for an 80s kid, might as well try to make its replacement a school project for a 20s kid. If a kid did it back then, the integration can't be that hard. You need to find a decision-maker to agree to the liability of letting some kid implement a system today. What if something goes wrong and all the children roast alive or something? Then the parents would sue. It'll never happ…

> What if something goes wrong and all the children roast alive or something? Then the parents would sue. It'll never happen today, people are terrified of being wrong so no is always the easiest answer.

I guess I sometimes agree with this sentiment, but this seems like an inappropriate place to invoke it. Is it really so insanely risk averse to get professional HVAC people to install and maintain the HVAC system for a large public facility?

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#66

Post by a-dub »

KerrAvon wrote: post #38
guessbest wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was replaced. The developer posted on discus, but I found the comment on slashdot quoted. https://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=7543887&cid=499003... >> When the Amiga system originally went in it was controlling well over 100 buildings throughout the district, including the entire GRCC campus at the time. The Amiga replaced the head-end of the system, which was experiencing expensive hardware failur…

> It needed to be able to handle multiple processes simultaneously, including interfacing with the systems, maintaining settings in the database, monitoring the system as well as support for both local and remote access to the system simultaneously. Basically, its capabilities fit the need. Ha, bullshit. Someone decided they liked the Amiga and wanted to play with it. I am sympathetic!

no that's actually true. in the mid 80s, it was the only personal computer that actually had preemptive multitasking built into the operating system.

serial communications were interrupt driven which didn't lend itself well at all to cooperative multitasking schemes. (gotta service those buffers asap)

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#67

Post by hn92726819 »

csdvrx wrote: post #47
ignite wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why replace? So you don't have downtime. If it breaks now, everything may be off until they replace the system. That could be months of no classes, which would be much worse than spending money to replace. If you start now, and finish before it breaks, you don't have to have downtime.

Why not replace? So you don't have downtime. If it breaks now, the system is well known (30+ years) and maintained. If it's updated to something new, everything may be off until they bring back the old system.That could be months of no classes, which would be much worse than spending money to replace. If they do nothing now, instead of taking a bet the new system will be more stable than the old one (a bet against th…

> is well known

No... It's known by the guy who wrote it 40 years ago that happens to still live there and want to chip in to fix it

> maintained

Well, they said parts are difficult to find now. I would not consider something with no replacement parts well maintained

> taking a bet the new system will be more stable than the old one

What? It's a gamble to leave it as it is with a bus factor of 1 and rickety old computer parts. Setting up a replacement doesn't imply this one goes away. If the new one is worse, they can have a plan to switch back to the old. If this computer catches on fire, they have to pray they can find a working replacement that the original implementor can install.

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#68

Post by nikau »

hoten wrote: post #29
tivert wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect this is what would be difficult to replace. A bespoke wireless sensor monitoring and communications system, integrated into an old heating/cooling system. Modern system just would not integrate into this, without a lot of work. You would have to replace everything, probably including the actual heating/cooling systems themselves. I wonder if it just integrated into a pre-existing control network: > The Co…

The number of layers added to modern programming and computer systems has gone up significantly since the 80s. It's sensible to claim that a kid from the 80s had far less to learn to be effective in the world of the 80s, than a 20s kid would need today.

The Amiga programmer didn't have Google and stack overflow, they likely were more proficient than most modern devs even as a teenager based on my experience as a kid who read the Amiga rom kernel manuals cover to cover.

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#69

Post by WWLink »

deadlyllama wrote: post #20

You could retrofit a more modern computer in there. Probably even reverse engineer the radio system and replace it. This would have been done by an enthusiastic high school student with both programming, electronics, maybe some RF knowledge too. Radio amateur? I find these stories kind of sad. Clever system built by someone talented, at a low cost -- replacement with a modern system costed in the millions. Those tale…

Yea, schools today don't encourage kids to screw around with computers.

Re: Amiga runs Michigan schools' heating and air conditioning systems (2015)

#70

Post by WWLink »

jprd wrote: post #26
sublinear wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever the district has a problem with it, they go back to the original programmer who still lives in the area. It is indeed impressive, but I hope there's a contract for this. Everything else about this story sounds insanely incompetent, so I... I worry. In principle there's nothing wrong with a Motorola 68K running a system like this, but the rest of this is damned.

You'd probably be horrified to know what kind of systems still run most of the world's manufacturing, very much including modern chip fabs.

Would I? The amiga setup sounds totally fine to me. Aside from old HVAC equipment potentially wasting a lot of energy, I see nothing wrong with using a 40 year old computer to control everything.
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