Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists • Hacker News Board

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#61

Post by harles » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

There’s definitely a Marxist undertone to the whole thing. What I really don’t get is the conclusion which suggests tearing it all down. Why not build more “Ivy+” and attempt to lift others up rather than flip the table? Yeah, it’s a tall order, but much more practical (not to mention positive) than getting rid of top schools.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#62

Post by a257 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

axolotlgod wrote: post #25

HPsquared wrote: post #3

There is always a ruling class. It's an emergent phenomenon which always reasserts itself after any upset. Basically a law of nature.

Wow, that's a strong claim. There are various counterexamples to this, so I'd say it's definitely not a law of nature. And anyway, nature by nature (lol) is essentially lawless. It's all random collisions of tiny molecules. So, if anything, I'd say the one law of nature is that there are no laws of nature. Thus, no, there isn't always a ruling class. It doesn't have to be that way.

Emergent phenomenon can also produce "laws of nature". For example, the laws of thermodynamics are explained by statistical mechanics.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#63

Post by kweingar » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:32 PM UTC

HPsquared wrote: post #3

There is always a ruling class. It's an emergent phenomenon which always reasserts itself after any upset. Basically a law of nature.

At one point in history, it was a law of nature that a substantial portion of children will die at very early ages. Up to that point, it was basically universally true across space and time. We changed that law of nature.

There are lots of “laws of nature” we face today that people dare to hope can be changed, like war. I think peace is a good goal even if you could somehow prove it’s in our nature to fight.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#64

Post by lapcat » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:32 PM UTC

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument.

I think you missed the point of the article, which was "Harvard exists to make society less meritocratic, and it does that while subsidized by everyone else."

> Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies.

The author discusses this: "The hardest part of Harvard is getting in." "High-stakes college admissions means that much of the value of a college degree is determined before students even start college. If you must mark and sort young people, gross, but OK. But why do it at 18 rather than 22?"

On a personal note, I was accepted to an Ivy League school (though not Harvard) as a high school senior, but my family couldn't afford to send me there, so I had to go to a state school instead. My classmate and friend was accepted to MIT but also had to go to a state school because of money. This was decades ago, so perhaps things have changed recently, but my higher education was gated on my family's wealth, i.e., lack thereof. Was it a "meritocracy"? No fucking way.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#65

Post by aidenn0 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:32 PM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #16

I have no issue with Harvard existing. However, it should be taxed on its endowment and it should not receive taxpayer support like student loans unless it commits to being a purely meritocratic institution.

That fails to address the main thrust of TFA: even if Harvard were to be purely objective in its admissions, it would be anti-meritocratic because of the boost of the credentials and the imperfections in any gating function.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#66

Post by whymauri » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:33 PM UTC

beebmam wrote: post #55

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

I totally agree that Harvard has (and should have) a right to do whatever they want with their institution and admit whoever they see fit. But if we're serious about a liberal/conservative "equality of opportunity" vs a progressive/socialist "equality of outcome" reality, then we should consider that children have very little consent over the kind of education and familial upbringing they get, yet that childhood educ…

Why not tackle inequality earlier in the funnel than college admissions? Better primary schooling and family resources?

A college admission lottery doesn't seem to be a serious solution.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#67

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:33 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #8

I find the Harvard angst interesting. I’ve never once felt someone else going to Harvard impacted my life in any way whatsoever. I’ve advanced further than everyone I know that went to Harvard in my career and not once did someone wink at the Harvard guy and pass me over. I’m sure it happens, and I’m sure there are secret clubs I don’t get invited to (well the Harvard club is pretty nice and I was invited there by a…

The existence of billionaires and millionaires negatively affects everyone else's standard of living via gentrification. Imagine you live in a community of 1000 middle class people, all making, say, $30K/yr to $60K/yr. You make $45K/year so you're about average. You can all afford homes, goods, and so on. Suddenly, 10 millionaires move in. Housing prices start to rise a little bit, grocery stores get a little more upscale and more expensive, car dealers see $$$ and jack up their prices. Then, a billionaire moves in. The market responds again. Suddenly, you're not doing so good anymore, despite earning the same as you were before the millionaires moved in. Now scale that up country-wide or world-wide. The more wealthy people there are, the higher the average cost of everything.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#68

Post by pxx » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:33 PM UTC

> You can't start a tax-exempt country club.

Uh... Sure you can? This is literally section 501(c)7; private clubs in general are exempt from federal income taxation.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#69

Post by user3939382 » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:33 PM UTC

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> The top schools can be pretty darn great

I've seen research suggesting that the schools aren't necessarily great, the students are. They were already great which is how they passed the admissions criteria, and their career success can be attributed to the qualities that they arrived at e.g. Harvard with. They would have been as successful regardless of where they attended. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Re: Maybe the problem is that Harvard exists

#70

Post by hospitalJail » Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 3:34 PM UTC

glimshe wrote: post #39

This is a typical "let's be all equally poor/bad" argument. Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation and not a single person is required to go there or hire someone from there. Why do Harvard people "drive 20% above the speed limit"? Because selecting good people in a sea of resumes is HARD. Degrees aren't amazing proxies for productivity, but they are decent proxies. I've seen dozens of theo…

> Harvard is simply a private institution with excellent reputation

It used to.

Now when I see someone went to Harvard, I imagine they had rich parents or were part of Affirmative Action. Not to mention their cheating scandals and forged data.

Heck, I talked to a Harvard law grad last week and asked them for specific points on their speech and they had no follow up, they regurgitated. This was no AAA student, this was someone that benefited from Affirmative Action + had 2 physician parents.

Harvard in the modern age hasnt impressed me.