Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#61

Post by epivosism » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:42 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #48

epivosism wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like just the opposite of a capitalist monopoly from the other side. Why would I want any party to control the way a market works? You'll get stagnation both ways. see many historical examples where both monopolies and unions refused change and were overturned, leading to failures. i.e. Detroit I want a functioning competitive market where workers and firms compete and have to adjust and innovate to fit w…

> Nothing shows the power of capitalist monopolies more than the lengths unions go to fight them. Oh wait You say this as if it's some clever proof, but I'd say it's literally correct. It's why all sorts of people in all sorts of countries fight capitalist monopolies. And, I should add, for all sorts of reasons. I believe strongly in the power of markets. They're incredible optimization machines. Which is why I'm als…

Yeah I was saying that the original claim was self-contradictory since if you use "resistance exists" as a proof that something is good, then you've already admitted that anti-unionism is good too, since it's also strongly resisted.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#62

Post by Lolaccount » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

... throws packages through our open windows instead of ringing the doorbell ...

Your comment rings true.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#63

Post by mdgrech23 » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

whalesalad wrote: post #49

Is this a theory, or proven? It makes a LOT of sense to do what Amazon is doing here. Why would you want to have a ton of depreciating vehicles on your balance sheet? Why would you want the maintenance burden? No need to worry about all the regional differences with vehicle/transport law - you allow people who are based in that region to do it (better). One could also argue this is good for the economy, in that there…

it probably is good for Amazons bottom line but all of this just results in greater wealth disparity. since you're on you probably make a good living in tech but don't think that makes you immune to replacement. likewise having a bunch of people in neighboring cities who can't afford housing or groceries is going to have repercussions in your daily life as well.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#64

Post by ocdtrekkie » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:44 PM UTC

NikolaNovak wrote: post #25

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

Fair enough, but I wonder how much areas and personal experiences matter. My experience with UPS over last 2 decades, as a receiving individual , has been dismal (condos in Toronto and now house in satellite residential community). I understand they optimize toward businesses, and I'm sure as a business their procedures are streamlined and efficient, but as a resident receiving package, it's awful. Majority of packag…

It is also likely, as pointed out here, an employer difference: You may regionally be seeing Amazon drivers from different employers who add different expectations beyond Amazon's.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#65

Post by aatd86 » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:46 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #60

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

> Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex. There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.

That's the other way around. They should be paid more. ;)

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#66

Post by notyourwork » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:47 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #60

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

> Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex. There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.

Humans are all humans. Irrespective of their income level. Not sure what minimum wage has to do with whether or not being polite and pleasant conversation is exchanged.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#67

Post by somehnguy » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:49 PM UTC

jtreminio wrote: post #28

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

I don't think anyone has a problem with the workers listening to music while they drive around. But I can hear the Amazon truck's music from the opposite side of the block, which is a little excessive.

Honestly it doesn't bother me all that much, just saying there is a stark difference between them and FedEx/UPS/USPS when coming through my neighborhood.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#68

Post by kova12 » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:49 PM UTC

bfeynman wrote: post #2

This behavior of legal loopholes to discount workers should be made illegal. The definition of sub-contractor has got to change and/or have laws/policies in place that actually make sense in a sub contractor relationship. These are shell companies that spin up and exclusively deliver for amazon, they aren't gig workers delivering when they want, they have strict quotas.

This is a pretty slippery slope you are getting on. Hiring a subcontractor is common business practice for many purposes. What you are proposing will essentially make anybody a criminal, because there's always a way to second guess one's intentions.

What your point is however illustrating is how wrong the union legislation is. It's essentially forcing free people into organization they didn't choose. I'm not questioning the usefulness of trade unions in old days of industrialization, but now those just became cancers that suck out resources from businesses and consumers

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#69

Post by qbasic_forever » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

bfeynman wrote: post #2

This behavior of legal loopholes to discount workers should be made illegal. The definition of sub-contractor has got to change and/or have laws/policies in place that actually make sense in a sub contractor relationship. These are shell companies that spin up and exclusively deliver for amazon, they aren't gig workers delivering when they want, they have strict quotas.

You don't need laws to enforce this change or behavior, you just need the Amazon drivers to show solidarity and unionize. They can demand (and get!) far more change than the government will ever legislate. The threat of a strike and labor action is far scarier to Amazon than nosey lawmakers that can just be silenced with enough campaign donations.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#70

Post by game_the0ry » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

The lengths that American businesses go to avoid the cost of labor is beyond stupid.

Henry Ford paid his employees well, bc he treated his employees as an investment, not as a line-item cost on an excel spreadsheet, and new that higher wages would mean a more prosperous middle class that would buy more model Ts. [1]

The US economy has become extractive in nature - extracting as much value from the resources available (humans included) rather than betting on growth and optimism. This has been the case since 2008, its like c-suite managers are emotionally scarred, and it trickles down to lower level managers, training them to adopt this broken mentality.

No wonder quality of life is declining in America over time.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2014/01/27/267145552/the-middle-class-to...