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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#61

Post by Lionga »

junon wrote: post #39
crote wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it com…

> Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines That's great news for Germany then.

If they want to produce more ICE cars for the next decades yes.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#62

Post by alecco »

This smells of government-subsidized terrible ideas. German energy costs, land costs, lack of water, crazy high taxes, and anti-business governments.

OTOH Netherlands would make a much better option in almost every angle. And add having ASML engineers around the corner.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#63

Post by crote »

justinclift wrote: post #48
crote wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the issue, isn't it? The Chips Act was marketed as an attempt to bring back "cutting-edge chips" to Europe, and to promote research and innovation. In the end it turns out to just be a huge government subsidy for a bog-standard fab which is at least a decade behind what TSMC is building in Taiwan. Great for automotive companies who want to strengthen their supply lines, but pretty pointless when it com…

Bear in mind that this could be a "thin edge of the wedge" situation. Where they get this "older" node stuff up and running, and if it turns out to be going well then they can think about newer process/node sizes. It's not a dumb approach.

The problem with that is that this is essentially just a TSMC fab. If they wanted to, they could have easily used a newer node. And there isn't even significant technology transfer involved with TSMC having a 70% stake and there already being fabs with this level of tech in Europe at GlobalFoundries and others.

There is pretty much no way forward for this. You'd have a point if a European company managed to sign a technology transfer for last year's node, but that's simply not what is happening here.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#64

Post by rottencupcakes »

alecco wrote: post #62

This smells of government-subsidized terrible ideas. German energy costs, land costs, lack of water, crazy high taxes, and anti-business governments. OTOH Netherlands would make a much better option in almost every angle. And add having ASML engineers around the corner.

As a dumb American, can you help explain how energy costs, land costs, and water supply can be that significantly different across an open border?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#65

Post by moooo99 »

oytis wrote: post #57
luplex wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's if we don't expect Germany to become an AI powerhouse, where GPUs are useful. Apparently this does not seem to be a priority.

20 years forward - "The AI is uncharted territory for all of us."

To be fair, fillable PDF forms from public institutions still seem to be uncharted territory for large parts of Germany.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#66

Post by KingOfCoders »

alecco wrote: post #62

This smells of government-subsidized terrible ideas. German energy costs, land costs, lack of water, crazy high taxes, and anti-business governments. OTOH Netherlands would make a much better option in almost every angle. And add having ASML engineers around the corner.

I wouldn't build factories in a country that's going to sink.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#67

Post by Lionga »

rasz wrote: post #41
trompetenaccoun wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The planned joint venture will be 70% owned by TSMC, with Bosch, Infineon, and NXP each holding 10% equity stake, subject to regulatory approvals and other conditions. I wonder what them "providing" 5 billions as news reports put it actually means. Is this a loan, a gift, or some other type of deal?

Gift. Here is how it worked in Wales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hijJ_4H08RM

You have to subtract 10% or so in kickbacks that will later flow back to the politicians handing out the money

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#68

Post by arcticbull »

rasz wrote: post #45
raverbashing wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the 'chip shortage' those past years was not for the cutting-edge stuff, but for automotive/embedded devices Not everything needs the 5nm cutting edge, and to be fair calling > 300mm (12-inch) wafers on TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology, old is a bit unfair

and zero of the shortages were caused by lack of fab capacity - companies cut orders for over a year. Old stocks got depleted, prices skyrocketed, then companies reluctantly put new orders and started selling at those inflated prices.

That's not exactly what happened. Manufacturers gave up their fab capacity at the start of the pandemic to hedge for a potential economic kerfuffle. That capacity was immediately resold to other parties, and by the time the folks who gave up their fab space realized things were going to be okay and came back, it was too late. It really was a fab supply shortage, but a situation of their own making too.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#69

Post by surgical_fire »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #66
alecco wrote: post #62

This smells of government-subsidized terrible ideas. German energy costs, land costs, lack of water, crazy high taxes, and anti-business governments. OTOH Netherlands would make a much better option in almost every angle. And add having ASML engineers around the corner.

I wouldn't build factories in a country that's going to sink.

Most of the Netherlands is already below sea level. This is a non-issue.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#70

Post by oytis »

alecco wrote: post #62

This smells of government-subsidized terrible ideas. German energy costs, land costs, lack of water, crazy high taxes, and anti-business governments. OTOH Netherlands would make a much better option in almost every angle. And add having ASML engineers around the corner.

ASML still has engineers in Germany. And it's EU anyway.
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