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Arch Linux turns 10

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Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#61
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That means you belong to the 1st group, i.e. people who prefer pixelated/rough text look from the 90s. No offense, but this "looks fine to me" attitude is what has been historically handicapping the Linux desktop. Below are two examples of "looks fine": Case #1. Thin non-antialiased fonts sirca Windows 95: http://i1-linux.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Arch-Linux_... Case #2. Default Arch anti-aliasing with poor qu…

You could not be more wrong. I have probably worked more for my fonts than for anything else about my system, on any linux distro I've tried (on OSX, the rendering's fine but the actual font choices kind of blow...there I have other problems that consume much more of my time than the fonts). On arch, I install the infinality patched freetype stuff from the AUR, set some preferences in .Xresources, install the fonts I…

> I install the infinality patched freetype stuff from the AUR

I proved my point right there. That's what I've been doing too and maintaining AUR-sourced patched core packages like that has been problematic: every once in a while you'll get a part of Gnome or something else demanding a higher version of freetype (which your patched version doesn't provide) and it either halts your update or forces you to get plain vanilla freetype.

And you haven't addressed the case of packages that don't use system cairo/freetype. BTW the rendering on your screenshot is excellent. Also I feel that this discussion is somewhat misplaced. :)

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#62
post #23
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, well the thing is I never had to use it before. But a package required it, so with a quick google-fu it said to include --force. What wasn't clear is that you had to do a --force for only that package.. while I simply added it to my already crafted command. (I.e. ctrl-p --force ). Let's say I've learned that one the hard way ;)

You should be using Pacmatic. The --force thing was a news feed item, and Pacmatic would have shown you the official news before you could have done damage.

Thanks, that's interesting!

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#63
post #4

I love Arch. Best distribution by far in my opinion. Sadly, I had huge problems one week ago when I did a full system upgrade (took me 2 days to fix everything that was corrupted and lost lots of money because of it) but then it was my fault. (Never use --force with a system upgrade!) To be fair, there should be a warning when you try to execute the command as it's probably not what a user would want to do.

I have a bunch of painful stories about using Arch but the best one happened most recently.

I had some outdated package that I wanted to update so I asked in the #arch irc room how to just update that one package. I was told upgrading a single package is generally a bad idea and its better to just update the entire system. I have had a server running Gentoo for ~5 years and I frequently upgrade single packages at a time so I saw no problem with this but ok, I'm not an Arch expert so I followed the #arch people's advice.

I invoked the upgrade command and I see it wants to upgrade the linux kernel to 3.2 and a bunch of other stuff. After the upgrade completes I rebooted the machine (or it rebooted itself, I forget). It wasn't able to boot up. I put in a rescue cd but I couldn't figure out what was wrong.

This is exactly why I don't do 'emerge world' in gentoo anymore. It has backfired on me more than 50% of the time (when I used to do it). I simply do not trust these bleeding edge distro people to get everything working all the time and I am annoyed at the zealots who constantly advise to just upgrade as if nothing could possibly go wrong.

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#65
What I don't like about Arch is that it doesn't provide debug symbol packages, which makes it useless for providing crash bug reports for programs written in compiled languages unless the user is willing to recompile them. IMHO general-purpose distros have moral (or at least pragmatic) imperative to support the development of the software that they ship, and making sure users can file decent bug reports easily is an important part of that.

Meanwhile, other distros have gotten to the point of automatically installing the right debug symbol packages right from the crash reporter built into app suites like KDE's to generate useful backtraces.

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#66
post #63
post #4

I love Arch. Best distribution by far in my opinion. Sadly, I had huge problems one week ago when I did a full system upgrade (took me 2 days to fix everything that was corrupted and lost lots of money because of it) but then it was my fault. (Never use --force with a system upgrade!) To be fair, there should be a warning when you try to execute the command as it's probably not what a user would want to do.

I have a bunch of painful stories about using Arch but the best one happened most recently. I had some outdated package that I wanted to update so I asked in the #arch irc room how to just update that one package. I was told upgrading a single package is generally a bad idea and its better to just update the entire system. I have had a server running Gentoo for ~5 years and I frequently upgrade single packages at a t…

Good points here. I currently run Arch but would be interested in seeing sort of a LTS style Arch that would only update packages with security updates and other stable packages. I guess that would require a lot of maintenance though.

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#67
post #42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I got the impression that updates of Arch broke things that required my manual intervention to fix more than updates of Debian did. Maybe it looks more 'frequent' but when it does so it's in a much, much more limited scope each time. It's more like small, discrete steps vs a whole batch at once. > you have the option of subscribing to just the security patches for your version of Debian -- an option that Arch L…

I've been using Arch for about five years, and I can tell you that things break more frequently than with any other distro I've used for a suffiently long amount of time. Things break more frequently when you're tinkering with things, but sometimes even on routine updates. If you want something more stable, use Debian Testing or Slackware. That being said, Arch is great. Try it!

> things break more frequently

Yes it might be more frequent, yet each time it is of a more limited scope since it concerns a single, maybe two packages. Following the news and maybe the forums helps a lot. Example regarding the scope: I upgraded some machines Ubuntu 11.04 to 11.10, and so much breakage occurred that the machines required such an extend of work that they simply were declared unrecoverable and reinstalled from scratch.

> use Debian Testing

In the months following a release, Debian testing essentially == Sid, and breakage is infamous.

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#68
post #39
post #37

I'm not sure exactly when I moved over to Arch from Crux, I'm sure the distribution was at least a few months old by then, but it's been a great distribution as long as I've known it. It does suffer the occasional dip into making things more complicated than they need to be, some element of the distribution straying towards the "SysV" darkside and away from the "BSD" ideal, or an upstream's configuration system just…

I've been using debian based systems (including ubuntu) for over a decade now, and I can't think of more than a handful of times time I've had to jump through hoops to keep apt and dpkg happy. You may not always have the latest version of the software, but the productivity compared to compile.everything or rpm-based systems is significant. Almost everytime I need a piece of software, it's one command away.

Arch has the fewest deviations from "regular" linux of any distribution I've tried, probably because keeping everything as close as possible to vanilla is one of the core principles of the distribution. It still has all the convenience of the one command software install or upgrade, but it doesn't place itself between you and the software once it is installed like so many other distributions do. It's great if vanilla linux is what you've grown up using, it's probably a moot point if you don't default to trying to do things the standard, vanilla way.

I have had other distributions autogenerate and overwrite hand-modified /etc files, and not just system-level ones but even daemon config files! It was something like the distribution required you to edit a distribution-unique "local changes" file for the daemon, not the daemon's actual config file, all so the package manager could incorporate parameters out of some sort of "friendly" config database into a new autoregenerated config file.

Many distributions require that you run a custom command just to do something as stupidly simple as create the /etc/localtime symlink, sometimes even dropping you into a GUI (to create a symlink! Arch is guilty of autocreating this symlink too, but at least it's controlled by a single ASCII line in the distribution's one main distribution-specific config file, rc.conf). Or some distributions have "SysV"-type init systems but require you to use a custom command to handle creating and deleting the symlinks for starting and stopping daemons. Again, usually to allow a package manager to alter those same files without having to figure out what a human has done to them. Those are the sort of "hoops" I'm thinking of.

My complaint's not that those systems exist for people to use, especially if it makes things easier for them, it's just that everyone is forced to use them. Those custom commands/the package manager integration is usually pretty delicate and almost always breaks completely if you try to do things the standard way, without going through them, or if they don't break they stay resilient by silently erasing your changes.

I'm sure there are great advantages to be had by committing fully to a given distribution's custom systems. People managing large or many systems probably find a lot of problems solved by the distributions' custom methods of doing things and the tight integration of those methods with their package managers (but I'm just running a laptop). I'm sure they're also just fine if you first learn how to do a specific configuration change on that distribution, and then don't even need to care what the real output of your manipulations of the distribution's configuration system is.

But if you already know the form of the change you want to happen, the exact line in a config file that you want changed or the exact flag passed to a daemon on startup, it's incredibly frustrating. You have to wade through all of a distribution's weird changes to a piece of software and its added config system layers just to figure out how to mangle your change in such a way that the distribution will unmangle it back into the exact form you could have just edited into the program's config file by hand in 3 seconds.

It's been a long time since I've tried Debian, I don't know what it's like in its modern form, how much you are required to actually cooperate with the distribution's unique systems or if you can ignore them without breaking anything. But the presence of debconf, alternatives, and update-rc.d all sound very discouraging.

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#69
post #63
post #4

I love Arch. Best distribution by far in my opinion. Sadly, I had huge problems one week ago when I did a full system upgrade (took me 2 days to fix everything that was corrupted and lost lots of money because of it) but then it was my fault. (Never use --force with a system upgrade!) To be fair, there should be a warning when you try to execute the command as it's probably not what a user would want to do.

I have a bunch of painful stories about using Arch but the best one happened most recently. I had some outdated package that I wanted to update so I asked in the #arch irc room how to just update that one package. I was told upgrading a single package is generally a bad idea and its better to just update the entire system. I have had a server running Gentoo for ~5 years and I frequently upgrade single packages at a t…

> I frequently upgrade single packages at a time so I saw no problem with this but ok, I'm not an Arch expert so I followed the #arch people's advice.

Imagine your window manager relies on libX as a dependency. You update CoolNewApp, which relies on an updated version is libX. So it installs that from your repos and CoolNewApp works great. However, your WM needs an update to be compatible with the newer version of libX, and that update wasn't installed, so the next time you go to login, bam, broken system.

Re: Arch Linux turns 10

#70
post #50
post #32

Arch is what I have been running (since around 2006). I love the simplicity. When things do break, there is an amazing community waiting to provide support. The Arch community rules! I think Arch is quickly becoming what Gentoo was...(hopefully I dont start a war!).

What do you think gentoo was? When I used it (2005-7ish), I think it was a toy for brat haxxors. At the time, I was a brat haxxor, so it worked well.

During a certain period the Gentoo wiki was one of the best resources for configuration and debugging, even if you used another distro. The downfall might be coincide with the Big Wiki Loss [0].

[0] http://eddiedu.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/gentoo-wiki-gentoo-p...

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