Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca • Hacker News Board

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#61

Post by tedivm » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #40

tedivm wrote: post #30

I think it's important to note a couple of things. > The city of San Francisco released data last week showing that 55% of homeless individuals rejected shelter when offered it I think it's very important to understand why people turn down the beds. There are several reasons- * Shelters have very restricted hours, so if someone has a job that includes nights they likely can't use a shelter. A large number of homeless…

You missed the most common reason: * Drugs and alcohol are not allowed

I honestly don't believe that is anywhere near the common reason.

I know this is anecodotal (as is your comment), but I've spent a lot of time around the homeless population. I was "housed homeless" for a year, and my sister was homeless for several years due to mental illness.

The rate of drug use amongst the homeless does tend to be higher than the average population, and I don't think there's any denying that. However, it isn't nearly as universal as people seem to think. The average homeless person is homeless for less than two years, and it is normally due to financial reasons. Given programs that provide housing these people can normally come off the streets and live great lives. The simple fact that so many people manage to bounce back shows that what the average person things of homeless people isn't the actual reality.

The other thing, and this might sound obvious, is that the people who do drugs or drink simply take their stuff before they go to the shelters. These aren't people with hundreds of dollars to blow on their addictions. They often panhandle, eat, drug/do drugs, and then look for a place to crash. This also isn't the entire homeless population, just a smaller portion of it (that people use to justify not helping the larger portion, even though the whole population does need help).

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#62

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

slifin wrote: post #5

600k per year per person? With that amount of funding you may as well buy every homeless person a house

Well, not in San Francisco, and not anywhere in the surrounding area without driving house prices even higher.

(Now, building every homeless person a house might be more viable.)

Still doesn’t deal with the fact that much of that is nonshelter costs that would still be needs, even if they would move out of the homelessness budget.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#63

Post by vidanay » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

evancox100 wrote: post #54

tedivm wrote: post #30

I think it's important to note a couple of things. > The city of San Francisco released data last week showing that 55% of homeless individuals rejected shelter when offered it I think it's very important to understand why people turn down the beds. There are several reasons- * Shelters have very restricted hours, so if someone has a job that includes nights they likely can't use a shelter. A large number of homeless…

I think well meaning liberals want to believe that all of society’s problems can be solved without any form of coercion, and that is simply not the case. If someone is homeless and has a dog, and there is a shelter bed for them, you may just need to force them to give up their dog and move to the shelter (or else face arrest). There are overriding concerns greater than letting people keep their pets. I recognize the…

And what, exactly, is your plan for the animal after you forcible make the person give them up?

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#64

Post by evancox100 » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #42

evancox100 wrote: post #20

What I don’t understand is that if making it illegal to build whatever living structure you want on public land is “cruel and unusual punishment”, why is it still illegal to build the living structure of your choice on private land that you own? Isn’t such a law even more restrictive? How have we willingly ceded so much authority to bureaucratic busybodys who have nothing better to do than micromanage the size, shape…

> What I don’t understand is that if making it illegal to build whatever living structure you want on public land is “cruel and unusual punishment”, why is it still illegal to build the living structure of your choice on private land that you own Your premise is wrong; making rhe first kind of law has not been ruled unconstitutional, only enforcing it when there is no available shelter for the homeless population .

Right, that’s what I mean. Why is enforcing it in either case ok under that reasoning? Clearly building a structure to house an additional person on private land would help keep people off the streets, even if it’s a shanty town. (Which is what we currently have except it’s on public land!)

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#65

Post by WaxProlix » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

fieldcny wrote: post #47

WaxProlix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated to the topic at hand, but in the last couple of days I've become completely unable to use the Archive. Infinite loops of CAPTCHAs and 429 Too Many Requests in console :( Really sad, it feels like I'm losing access to some really core, basic internet infrastructure.

You could always try paying for the subscriptions…

The Archive is more than a paywall bypasser.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#66

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #56

slifin wrote: post #5

600k per year per person? With that amount of funding you may as well buy every homeless person a house

This is one of those terrible, misleading statistics. Most of the "homelessness" budgets in large cities go towards preventing people from becoming unsheltered - i.e. on housing support and prevention. Two-thirds of San Francisco's homelessness budget is spent on housing and prevention: https://hsh.sfgov.org/about/budget/overview-previous-budgets... By definition, the best spent homelessness budget would be the one t…

> By definition, the best spent homelessness budget would be the one that resulted in zero people in shelters right?

Well, no, otherwise “have no shelters” would be the cheapest optimal strategy.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#67

Post by goodpoint » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

tedivm wrote: post #30

I think it's important to note a couple of things. > The city of San Francisco released data last week showing that 55% of homeless individuals rejected shelter when offered it I think it's very important to understand why people turn down the beds. There are several reasons- * Shelters have very restricted hours, so if someone has a job that includes nights they likely can't use a shelter. A large number of homeless…

The main reason is that shelters are more dangerous than streets.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#68

Post by xvector » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

babl-yc wrote: post #35

What's insane is that the injunction from a single judge will stand until at least April 2024 when the case is finally heard. https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/federal-judge-refuses-to...

SF should do the sweeps anyways. Who cares what this ridiculous judge thinks? What is she gonna do, send in the National Guard? That would be an improvement.

At a certain point the blathering of these judges is completely irrelevant and simply not worthy of respect or obedience.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#69

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:24 PM UTC

pastor_bob wrote: post #29

> Mayor London Breed threw her hands up in response. “We can’t force people to accept or stay in shelters and we’re unable to prevent people from setting up an encampment in an area that was just cleaned. This is the situation we are in,” she tweeted Wednesday. > She’s right. San Francisco is under a federal injunction that bars officials from enforcing laws against camping or sleeping in public spaces as long as its…

>100,000 penniless migrants to NYC, they still are able to find beds for people.

These are, by and large, economic migrants who really just want to work and are therefore a very different profile from the unsheltered on typical city streets - for whom mental illness and drug dependency are almost ubiquitous.

Re: Why San Francisco Is a Homeless Mecca

#70

Post by tedivm » Mon, Aug 07, 2023, 4:24 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #58

tedivm wrote: post #30

I think it's important to note a couple of things. > The city of San Francisco released data last week showing that 55% of homeless individuals rejected shelter when offered it I think it's very important to understand why people turn down the beds. There are several reasons- * Shelters have very restricted hours, so if someone has a job that includes nights they likely can't use a shelter. A large number of homeless…

1) your two points are at odds: some proportion of the homeless refuse shelter under any circumstances. What, then, is the point of wildly overprovisioning shelter beds, when ones are going unused today? 2) So, the idea is that until the government guarantees a free rental unit that accepts pets and provides a storage unit for all of a homeless person's stuff, it should be prevented from enforcing any laws about camp…

You're missing the point. The reason they don't give things up is because the shelter is temporary, but they results of using it aren't.

If you tell a homeless person you're going to shelter them for six months, the vast majority will take the shelter. If you tell them they have to move and you'll give them a bed for a night then many of them will see that as a shitty deal (which it is).

As for the legal stuff, you'll have to ask the supreme court as I wasn't the one arguing the case or making the law. That being said there are cities that have built out storage systems for homeless people. You don't even have to go that far for it, as Berkeley has been experimenting with this for awhile now. https://www.berkeleyside.org/2018/08/27/city-makes-available...

That said, giving the homeless a place to stay is cheaper than leaving them on the street. The vast majority of people in these programs end up getting jobs and paying their own way in the future.